Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

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10 Mar 2022, 7:24 pm

These days, The British certainly wouldn’t get away with their “adventures” during the heyday of their empire. And deservedly so.

Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 7:26 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

One thing should be remembered:

Putin changed the Russian constitution----so that he could remain in power until at least 2034.

He's been in power 22 years now. In 2034, he would have been in power 35 years. He just doesn't want to peacefully cede power (rather like Trump!)

He's being Orwellian when he declares that a "war" or "invasion" is not going on. And when he ordains 15-year prison sentences for anyone who just looks at the facts of the matter.

Please don't invoke Godwin's Law. :mrgreen:

kraftiekortie
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10 Mar 2022, 7:27 pm

Where's the Nazi connection in what I said?

Russia had been steadily progressing until Putin decided he wanted to act like a generalissimo or something....

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 10 Mar 2022, 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Mar 2022, 7:30 pm

Pepe wrote:

Mikah wrote:

You are aware that in 2014, when Russia, playing by the rules, offered Ukraine a sweeter deal than the EU, the U.S. [u]overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in a staged and managed mob coup d'etat?[/u] To which the Russians responded by annexing Crimea?

Link?

This is a decent run down:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/06/n ... n-ukraine/

I did try to find a video for you, but I couldn't find one that laid it out quite so well.

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VegetableMan
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10 Mar 2022, 7:30 pm

It's important to understand that the U S. backed coop in Ukraine supported neo-Nazis.

https://progressive.org/latest/us-reapi ... es-220201/

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Last edited by VegetableMan on 10 Mar 2022, 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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10 Mar 2022, 7:32 pm

What's most relevant is what's happening to the Ukrainian (and the Russian) people as a result of his ill-advised invasion.

Not even good for the Oligarchs.....

r00tb33r
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10 Mar 2022, 7:33 pm

Pepe wrote:

r00tb33r wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

/\ https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-his-rule

Thanx for that.

Quote:

The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”

I gather pootin simply ended the prospect of joining NATO there and then?
If so, big mistake for all concerned.

I'm glad someone brought this up. The truth is, Putin brought the 90s democratic Russia to the negotiating table with the West, but they were shunned and turned away. I think it was a mental turning point for Russian politics.

Link?

From what I can see, pootin simply didn't want to accept the conditions of being part of NATO.

I was paying attention to those affairs 20 years ago. If you want links you gonna have to dig deep in the internet archives for 20 year old articles.

Here's one from 2001:
Putin Is Right: Russia Belongs in NATO

VegetableMan
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10 Mar 2022, 7:37 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

What's most relevant is what's happening to the Ukrainian (and the Russian) people as a result of his ill-advised invasion.

Not even good for the Oligarchs.....

Agreed. But historical context is always a good thing.

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10 Mar 2022, 7:55 pm

Russia has neo-nazis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group
So neo-nazis are fighting neo-nazis in Ukraine and one side has a Jewish leader?

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10 Mar 2022, 8:00 pm

Mikah wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Mikah wrote:

Link?

This is a decent run down:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/06/n ... n-ukraine/

I did try to find a video for you, but I couldn't find one that laid it out quite so well.

Further reading and background:

https://www.sott.net/article/291634-Str ... ine-crisis

This is the interview where George Friedman of Stratfor (if you know who that is, you will know to pay careful attention to what is written) called the 2014 Ukraine incident "the most blatant coup in history"

KOMMERSANT: But US officials, as well as the leadership of EU member states, have explained their harsh policy toward the Russian Federation on the basis that, through its annexation of the Crimea, Russia for the first time since the Second World has "redrawn borders by force."

GEORGE FRIEDMAN: Americans know that this is nonsense. The first example of the changing of borders by force was Yugoslavia. And Kosovo was only the culmination of this process. And the United States is directly involved in these events.

KOMMERSANT: What is the goal of US policy as far as Ukraine is concerned?

GEORGE FRIEDMAN: For all of the last 100 years Americans have pursued a very consistent foreign policy. Its main goal: to not allow any state to amass too much power in Europe. First, the United States sought to prevent Germany from dominating Europe, then it sought to prevent the USSR from strengthening its influence.

The essence of this policy is as follows: to maintain as long as possible a balance of power in Europe, helping the weaker party, and if the balance is about to be significantly disrupted -- to intervene at the last moment. And so, in the case of the First World War, the United States intervened only after the abdication of Nicholas II in 1917, to prevent Germany from gaining ground. And during WWII, the US opened a second front only very late (in June 1944), after it became clear that the Russians were prevailing over the Germans.

What is more, the most dangerous potential alliance, from the perspective of the United States, was considered to be an alliance between Russia and Germany. This would be an alliance of German technology and capital with Russian natural and human resources.

...

GEORGE FRIEDMAN: The fragmentation of Europe is accompanied by a weakening of NATO. European countries, in essence, have no [real] armies of their own. In the North Atlantic Alliance the United States is the only country that is strong in military terms. Against the background of the weakening of Europe, the comparative power of Russia has grown significantly.

Russia's strategic imperative is to have as deep a buffer zone on its western borders as possible. Therefore, Russia has always been particularly concerned about its relationship with Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltic States and other countries in Eastern Europe. They are of great importance for Russia's national security.

At the beginning of this year there existed in Ukraine a slightly pro-Russian though very shaky government. That situation was fine for Moscow: after all, Russia did not want to completely control Ukraine or occupy it; it was enough that Ukraine not join NATO and the EU. Russian authorities cannot tolerate a situation in which western armed forces are located a hundred or so kilometers from Kursk or Voronezh.

The United States, for its part, were interested in forming a pro-Western government in Ukraine. They saw that Russia is on the rise, and were eager not to let it consolidate its position in the post-Soviet space. The success of the pro-Western forces in Ukraine would allow the U.S. to contain Russia.

Russia calls the events that took place at the beginning of this year a coup d'etat organized by the United States. And it truly was the most blatant coup in history.

...

KOMMERSANT: In other words, the Ukrainian crisis is the result of the confrontation between Russia and the United States?

GEORGE FRIEDMAN: Here you have two countries: one wants a Ukraine that is neutral. The other wants Ukraine to form part of a line of containment against Russian expansion. One cannot say that one party is mistaken: both are acting based on their national interests. It's just that these interests don't jive.

...

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Misslizard
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10 Mar 2022, 8:08 pm

That still does not justify the murder of innocent children and civilians, bombing hospitals and homes.

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Mikah
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10 Mar 2022, 8:29 pm

Misslizard wrote:

That still does not justify the murder of innocent children and civilians, bombing hospitals and homes.

What would? Collateral damage is inevitable in war, bombs and missiles stray. Innocents always die. Is war ever justified?

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r00tb33r
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10 Mar 2022, 8:33 pm

Mikah wrote:

Is war ever justified?

If a government harbors international terrorists, probably. I'm not talking about Ukraine, of course.

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10 Mar 2022, 8:43 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Where's the Nazi connection in what I said?

Russia had been steadily progressing until Putin decided he wanted to act like a generalissimo or something....

You brought up Trump.

To the hardcore left, Trump is another Hitler.
I am not calling you "a hardcore lefty", btw.

pootin is getting old, and like xi (and Hitler), he wants to see some of his dreams realised.

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10 Mar 2022, 8:54 pm

Mikah wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

That still does not justify the murder of innocent children and civilians, bombing hospitals and homes.

What would? Collateral damage is inevitable in war, bombs and missiles stray. Innocents always die. Is war ever justified?

Putin thinks so.
If someone invades your home ,are you justified in shooting them or do you stand idle while they ramsack your house and rape your wife?
Someone climbs in MY window and attacks me, I will shoot them graveyard dead I promise you.

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Matrix Glitch
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10 Mar 2022, 9:10 pm

magz wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

It's a lot more complex than that. The expansion of NATO was an arms race that made defense contractors a s**t ton of money.

Actually, 1990s were time of global de-arming.

VegetableMan wrote:

Nobody in power cares about the people who will suffer in this war. The United States certainly doesn't care, we have done equally horrible s**t as Russia is doing now.

And the British did bad things in their colonies - should they have not been fighting Hitler?

VegetableMan wrote:

What is the solution to this conflict?

Let Russia bleed out and run out of resources to continue any agression.
In the meanwhile, supplying anti-aircraft so Ukrainians can protect their cities.

That's how the Russian invasion into Afghanistan played out. The US bled Russia dry.

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