13 Jul 2013, 10:00 am
14 Jul 2013, 5:43 pm
14 Jul 2013, 5:45 pm
16 Jul 2013, 4:02 pm
16 Jul 2013, 9:55 pm
AgentPalpatine wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
Anyone would experience distress if their base level needs are not met. Introvert does not mean hermit. Anyway don't take it personally when people talk about extroverts, they don't mean autistic extroverts. The hypotheses about what causes introversion and extroversion all go out the window with autism - they assume neurotypicality. All research that's done on the human psyche reject autistic participants (if the study is not about autism).
While my response has little to do with MathGirl's OP, I'm not entirely sure that the cultural/social definition(s) of introvert/extrovert are even valid in any event. I really think the models, if they ever really existed as anything other than a cultural reference point, seem to break down under current condictions when looked at.
That's an interesting way of thinking about it. I'm not an expert on introversion and extroversion, so I'll paste this from Wiki so we know everyone is talking about the same thing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert wrote:
Extraversion
Extraversion is "the act, state, or habit of being predominantly concerned with and obtaining gratification from what is outside the self". Extroverts tend to enjoy human interactions and to be enthusiastic, talkative, assertive, and gregarious. They take pleasure in activities that involve large social gatherings, such as parties, community activities, public demonstrations, and business or political groups. Politics, teaching, sales, managing and brokering are fields that favor extroversion. An extroverted person is likely to enjoy time spent with people and find less reward in time spent alone. They tend to be energized when around other people, and they are more prone to boredom when they are by themselves.
Introversion
Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life". Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction. This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on psychic energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to an introvert is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents. They are more analytical before speaking. Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating environment.
Introversion is not seen as being identical to shy or to being a social outcast. Introverts prefer solitary activities over social ones, whereas shy people (who may be extroverts at heart) avoid social encounters out of fear.
Extraversion is "the act, state, or habit of being predominantly concerned with and obtaining gratification from what is outside the self". Extroverts tend to enjoy human interactions and to be enthusiastic, talkative, assertive, and gregarious. They take pleasure in activities that involve large social gatherings, such as parties, community activities, public demonstrations, and business or political groups. Politics, teaching, sales, managing and brokering are fields that favor extroversion. An extroverted person is likely to enjoy time spent with people and find less reward in time spent alone. They tend to be energized when around other people, and they are more prone to boredom when they are by themselves.
Introversion
Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life". Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction. This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on psychic energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to an introvert is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents. They are more analytical before speaking. Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating environment.
Introversion is not seen as being identical to shy or to being a social outcast. Introverts prefer solitary activities over social ones, whereas shy people (who may be extroverts at heart) avoid social encounters out of fear.
There are people that do enjoy socialising, and those that don't. There can be many reasons for that. In a way introversion and extroversion are diagnoses, as the labels deals with much more than that - it's a way to talk about different kinds of people without the stigma of mental illness. Notice how much detail is put into describing introverts - it's very obvious they assume we all are familiar with extroverts. It's very easy to see why so many autistics score as introverts, whether they enjoy socialising or not. The concept comes from a time before neurodiversity was as widely known as it is now. I would prefer if they would update the definition, or that the label "asocial" becomes more widely used as it's more precise. Here is the (less positive) definition of asocial from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asociality wrote:
Asociality refers to the lack of a strong motivation to engage in social interaction or the preference for solitary activities. Developmental psychologists use the synonyms nonsocial, unsocial, and social disinterest. Asocial is distinct from antisocial as the latter implies an active misanthropy or antagonism toward other people or the general social order.
Asociality is seen as a desirable trait in certain monastic traditions, notably in Catholicism, Buddhism and Sufism. It is lauded both as a tool of alienation from superficial secular life and of enabling a lifestyle of uninterrupted contemplation.
A degree of asociality is routinely observed in introverts, while extreme asociality is observed in schizophrenia patients. In schizophrenia it is characterised by an inability to empathise, to feel intimacy with, or to form close relationships with others (Davidson & Neale 1994). Asociality has also been observed in individuals who have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and Autism, usually due to bullying and social discouragement in adolescence.
Asociality is not necessarily perceived as a totally negative trait by society, since expressing asociality has been used as a way to express independence of the mind from prevailing ideas (dissent). Expressing asociality can also be used as a form of humour to indicate an issue (e.g. used for pointing out the exaggerations of social network services.
Asociality is seen as a desirable trait in certain monastic traditions, notably in Catholicism, Buddhism and Sufism. It is lauded both as a tool of alienation from superficial secular life and of enabling a lifestyle of uninterrupted contemplation.
A degree of asociality is routinely observed in introverts, while extreme asociality is observed in schizophrenia patients. In schizophrenia it is characterised by an inability to empathise, to feel intimacy with, or to form close relationships with others (Davidson & Neale 1994). Asociality has also been observed in individuals who have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and Autism, usually due to bullying and social discouragement in adolescence.
Asociality is not necessarily perceived as a totally negative trait by society, since expressing asociality has been used as a way to express independence of the mind from prevailing ideas (dissent). Expressing asociality can also be used as a form of humour to indicate an issue (e.g. used for pointing out the exaggerations of social network services.
Even though I've described myself as a semi-hermit, I'm simply asocial (but semi-hermit is a cuter word)
Apparently schizophrenics and HFAs (before AS and HFA both were ASD) are more asocial than your typical AS folks. As autistics share the negative symptoms of schizophrenia to some degree, the assumption that any asociality on an aspies part must be because of bullying is very odd. Autism does not mean social anxiety, or that anyone that is autistic and asocial is so for another reason than that they are happy like that.
Anyway, asocial is the right word, let's adopt it instead of this introversion/extroversion thing (as we can already assume that almost all of us are "introverts").
17 Jul 2013, 9:51 pm
18 Jul 2013, 4:09 am
18 Jul 2013, 4:47 am
18 Jul 2013, 1:19 pm
Anomiel wrote:
That's an interesting way of thinking about it. I'm not an expert on introversion and extroversion, so I'll paste this from Wiki so we know everyone is talking about the same thing
Very diplomatic Anomiel
. I'll explain in more detail below. Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert wrote:
Extraversion
Extraversion is "the act, state, or habit of being predominantly concerned with and obtaining gratification from what is outside the self". Extroverts tend to enjoy human interactions and to be enthusiastic, talkative, assertive, and gregarious. They take pleasure in activities that involve large social gatherings, such as parties, community activities, public demonstrations, and business or political groups. Politics, teaching, sales, managing and brokering are fields that favor extroversion. An extroverted person is likely to enjoy time spent with people and find less reward in time spent alone. They tend to be energized when around other people, and they are more prone to boredom when they are by themselves.
Introversion
Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life". Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction. This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on psychic energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to an introvert is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents. They are more analytical before speaking. Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating environment.
Introversion is not seen as being identical to shy or to being a social outcast. Introverts prefer solitary activities over social ones, whereas shy people (who may be extroverts at heart) avoid social encounters out of fear.
Extraversion is "the act, state, or habit of being predominantly concerned with and obtaining gratification from what is outside the self". Extroverts tend to enjoy human interactions and to be enthusiastic, talkative, assertive, and gregarious. They take pleasure in activities that involve large social gatherings, such as parties, community activities, public demonstrations, and business or political groups. Politics, teaching, sales, managing and brokering are fields that favor extroversion. An extroverted person is likely to enjoy time spent with people and find less reward in time spent alone. They tend to be energized when around other people, and they are more prone to boredom when they are by themselves.
Introversion
Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life". Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction. This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on psychic energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to an introvert is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents. They are more analytical before speaking. Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating environment.
Introversion is not seen as being identical to shy or to being a social outcast. Introverts prefer solitary activities over social ones, whereas shy people (who may be extroverts at heart) avoid social encounters out of fear.
There are people that do enjoy socialising, and those that don't. There can be many reasons for that. In a way introversion and extroversion are diagnoses, as the labels deals with much more than that - it's a way to talk about different kinds of people without the stigma of mental illness. Notice how much detail is put into describing introverts - it's very obvious they assume we all are familiar with extroverts. It's very easy to see why so many autistics score as introverts, whether they enjoy socialising or not. The concept comes from a time before neurodiversity was as widely known as it is now. I would prefer if they would update the definition, or that the label "asocial" becomes more widely used as it's more precise. Here is the (less positive) definition of asocial from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asociality wrote:
Asociality refers to the lack of a strong motivation to engage in social interaction or the preference for solitary activities. Developmental psychologists use the synonyms nonsocial, unsocial, and social disinterest. Asocial is distinct from antisocial as the latter implies an active misanthropy or antagonism toward other people or the general social order.
Asociality is seen as a desirable trait in certain monastic traditions, notably in Catholicism, Buddhism and Sufism. It is lauded both as a tool of alienation from superficial secular life and of enabling a lifestyle of uninterrupted contemplation.
A degree of asociality is routinely observed in introverts, while extreme asociality is observed in schizophrenia patients. In schizophrenia it is characterised by an inability to empathise, to feel intimacy with, or to form close relationships with others (Davidson & Neale 1994). Asociality has also been observed in individuals who have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and Autism, usually due to bullying and social discouragement in adolescence.
Asociality is not necessarily perceived as a totally negative trait by society, since expressing asociality has been used as a way to express independence of the mind from prevailing ideas (dissent). Expressing asociality can also be used as a form of humour to indicate an issue (e.g. used for pointing out the exaggerations of social network services.
Asociality is seen as a desirable trait in certain monastic traditions, notably in Catholicism, Buddhism and Sufism. It is lauded both as a tool of alienation from superficial secular life and of enabling a lifestyle of uninterrupted contemplation.
A degree of asociality is routinely observed in introverts, while extreme asociality is observed in schizophrenia patients. In schizophrenia it is characterised by an inability to empathise, to feel intimacy with, or to form close relationships with others (Davidson & Neale 1994). Asociality has also been observed in individuals who have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome and Autism, usually due to bullying and social discouragement in adolescence.
Asociality is not necessarily perceived as a totally negative trait by society, since expressing asociality has been used as a way to express independence of the mind from prevailing ideas (dissent). Expressing asociality can also be used as a form of humour to indicate an issue (e.g. used for pointing out the exaggerations of social network services.
Even though I've described myself as a semi-hermit, I'm simply asocial (but semi-hermit is a cuter word)
Apparently schizophrenics and HFAs (before AS and HFA both were ASD) are more asocial than your typical AS folks. As autistics share the negative symptoms of schizophrenia to some degree, the assumption that any asociality on an aspies part must be because of bullying is very odd. Autism does not mean social anxiety, or that anyone that is autistic and asocial is so for another reason than that they are happy like that. Anyway, asocial is the right word, let's adopt it instead of this introversion/extroversion thing (as we can already assume that almost all of us are "introverts").
My problem with extroversion/introversion, as applied, is that they seldom take into account the cultural and/or social frame of reference. The OP presented a case where the writer feels more "extroverted", but is under cultural pressure to be "introverted". On the other hand, the average WPer appears to have an elevated level of social anxiety that generally appears to lead to being "introverted".
Unfortunately, I've seldom seen such fine qualifications on the matter. It's uncommon to hear "They are extroverted, but they have Social Anxiety, and they didn't sleep well last night".
18 Jul 2013, 1:35 pm
18 Jul 2013, 10:49 pm
Hopetobe wrote:
Wow, I didn´t know aspies could be extroverts.
mental illness perhaps? I used to be a loud mouth bore in my major depressive/ anxious days ,not saying that's the case for all of us but I am sure it's many
and no I do not suggest the op is nut's just wanted to say
19 Jul 2013, 12:07 am
19 Jul 2013, 12:20 am
19 Jul 2013, 12:38 am
AgentPalpatine wrote:
MathGirl wrote:
But it's definitely not black-and-white and there are ambiverts, but many people can clearly categorize themselves as being either E or I.
Fair enough. In an ideal world, we'd all be able to agree on fairly simple definitions of such words. Unfortunately, and this is probably more of a cultural thing, the as applied concept of extroversion has become a cultural reference point in and of itself. If we use the definition presented above ("gain energy from"), then in most cases, people will categorize themselves. It's when we get into the fairly confusing world of social and cultural references that things get....sticky.
aussiebloke wrote:
Hopetobe wrote:
Wow, I didn´t know aspies could be extroverts.
mental illness perhaps? I used to be a loud mouth bore in my major depressive/ anxious days ,not saying that's the case for all of us but I am sure it's many
and no I do not suggest the op is nut's just wanted to say
19 Jul 2013, 12:54 am
^^^^
I hope you get that sorted out , btw I think ( like most of ladies) here , your quite ok
20 Jul 2013, 8:45 pm
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