People who support abortion say that those who

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NewTime
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16 Jun 2019, 6:52 pm

People who support abortion say that those who are against it hate women, and people who are against abortion say that those who support it hate babies. Which is it?



nick007
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17 Jun 2019, 6:58 am

I think it's the former more than the ladder because the people who hate abortion tend to be the 1s who want to cut government programs that help babies or people with babies.


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Borromeo
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17 Jun 2019, 7:56 am

Be careful broad-brush painting here...the correct answer is "it depends, and not all pro-lifers are as*holes.)

Pro life feminist guy here who thinks the whole damned culture is almost custom tailored to F--k over anybody who isn't in the country club set. Most of the "Republi-can'ts" who want to cut all those programs aren't really pro-life. In a few cases they want to punish the women for getting pregnant... :evil: and would prefer to execute criminals with no trial because they don't like paying taxes for them. I worked for one of these arsewipes for a while. Very much a male chauvinist. He wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and thought contraception was just fine: so, gatekeeping here, not really pro-life in the traditional sense. (Until 1930 birth-control was seen as immoral but the Lambeth Conference made the Anglican Church go for it. Now most people think it's just fine. I don't but I have my reasons...think it fosters a culture of casual sex which cheapens intercourse and the value people place on women socially.)

A lot of pro-abortion people don't actually hate babies, but they're scared of inconvenience--like raising a terminally diseased child, or a mentally defective one, or being kicked out of college or a job (Screw colleges and jobs for their failure to recognize biology. Women tend to have a kid now and then. Did you think they weren't fertile?) So for many of them it's a very painful choice, but a choice they say must be upheld. I call BS on that but I agree, it's probably damn hard to make these calls.

As a pro-lifer I think the abortion industry harms a large number of women who end up suffering from ptsd, etc., and I also think the people shortage resulting from abortion is horrible. You know, if we didn't have a rape culture, it might cut down on rape. If we didn't shack up all the time, that'd be a lot healthier. If we would stop saying life begins at whenever, like this nonsense about heartbeats, then we would be better off. I say anything with 46 human chromosomes is a human. Even if it's one fertilized egg--because an egg only has half the right DNA, so when it's fertilized, then it's no longer an egg but an embryo. Fetuses are usually pretty shy & silent for the first coupla weeks. Not to mention they look really ugly. But they're human fetuses...not in the sense that human tissue is human, but in the sense that you and me are all human. Fully human. It's got new DNA, it is alive and can grow--who cares whether it can or cannot live outside the womb? I can't live underwater, even though most organisms on earth do live in water. It's not my habitat. Wombs are embryo habitat.

(Regarding whether a man can hold a valid opinion on pro-life topics. While I have not got a womb I do have opinions on civil rights. Those who say only women can hold valid opinions are like southerners who said since northerners don't have slaves, they don't have a say on emancipation.)



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17 Jun 2019, 8:14 am

I'm a pro-choice feminist guy Borromeo & I agree with some of what you said. I do think there's a cultural aspect that needs to be addressed. I'm pro-birth-control more than I'm pro-choice & I noticed that some of the people who are pro-life tend to also push abstinence only education & are against birth-control. They believe that insurance companies & employers have the rite to push their religious believes onto women & refuse to cover their birth-control. I would think women getting pregnant & taking maternity leave would hurt employers & cost insurances more money than covering birth-control would but apparently some care more about their own beliefs than making smart business decisions.


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17 Jun 2019, 8:14 am

NewTime wrote:
People who support abortion say that those who are against it hate women, and people who are against abortion say that those who support it hate babies. Which is it?
The word "hate" is inappropriate. It's more like, "... are indifferent toward the rights of ..." than "... hate...", as in:

"People who support abortion say that those who are against it are indifferent toward the rights of women, and people who are against abortion say that those who support it are indifferent toward the rights of fetuses."


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Borromeo
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17 Jun 2019, 9:50 am

nick007 wrote:
I'm a pro-choice feminist guy Borromeo & I agree with some of what you said. I do think there's a cultural aspect that needs to be addressed. I'm pro-birth-control more than I'm pro-choice & I noticed that some of the people who are pro-life tend to also push abstinence only education & are against birth-control. They believe that insurance companies & employers have the rite to push their religious believes onto women & refuse to cover their birth-control. I would think women getting pregnant & taking maternity leave would hurt employers & cost insurances more money than covering birth-control would but apparently some care more about their own beliefs than making smart business decisions.



I have seen the issues you talk about play out in the real world, Nick...but when people prioritize "making smart business decisions" over "their own beliefs" then congratulations, the world is full of people acting like animals.

"Evil...is when you start treating people like things." (Terry Pratchett, author of the Discworld novels)



nick007
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17 Jun 2019, 11:36 am

Borromeo wrote:
nick007 wrote:
I'm a pro-choice feminist guy Borromeo & I agree with some of what you said. I do think there's a cultural aspect that needs to be addressed. I'm pro-birth-control more than I'm pro-choice & I noticed that some of the people who are pro-life tend to also push abstinence only education & are against birth-control. They believe that insurance companies & employers have the rite to push their religious believes onto women & refuse to cover their birth-control. I would think women getting pregnant & taking maternity leave would hurt employers & cost insurances more money than covering birth-control would but apparently some care more about their own beliefs than making smart business decisions.



I have seen the issues you talk about play out in the real world, Nick...but when people prioritize "making smart business decisions" over "their own beliefs" then congratulations, the world is full of people acting like animals.

"Evil...is when you start treating people like things." (Terry Pratchett, author of the Discworld novels)
I don't believe making smart business decisions means people have to act like animals or screw others over. It's better for businesses in the long run to treat people with respect & dignity because their employees are more loyal & stick with the company longer. There's less turnover so business don't have to focus as much on recruiting & training people & their employees are willing to work & do extra to help the company out more when it's needed. Plus the company has a better reputation which could increase their business. Nice quote BTW :) I just realized I've gotten off topic :lol:


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Borromeo
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17 Jun 2019, 11:57 am

Off topic would be expected, right? Especially when the whole forum's on the spectrum. I agree entirely with what you just said in your last post.

What I was talking about was the sorts of cases where women get fired from their jobs for being pregnant...I know a restaurant here in town was going to ditch the barmaid because she was having a kid. I mean--sure, an experienced bartender is hard to find in a do-nothing middle of nowhere town, and it's rough on the company when she has a kid. But you don't punish someone for doing something entirely normal and human.

Honestly, the companies you're talking about sound cool. I work at a coffee shop like that: very diverse. Men and women, blacks and whites, neurodiverse, all kinds of diverse, all of us hanging together and selling the best damn coffee in town. Some places have a "token woman" or "token negro" but we're all a good mix, because we hire on who's got a good work ethic and can stick with it? And we're in South Carolina which I think is hilarious. I don't think we'd fire someone for having a baby...so I like businesses like that.

You're right when you said we need a cultural change. I agree with you on that point, all the way. My objections to birth control are mainly philosophical, so here's a paper by one of my favorite opinionated old Edwardians who sums it up: Straight outta 1932, G.K. Chesterton's "Babies and Distributism." https://www.pdcnet.org/chesterton/conte ... _0005_0007

Chesterton is my favorite Catholic author even though for most of his writing career he was a lax Episcopalian. Pratchett is my favorite atheist writer.

Maybe capitalism is used up. Socialism hasn't worked too good especially as it turns into communism. Maybe distributism works.

But you can't run a country on maybes! (Now we're off topic again, drat.)



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17 Jun 2019, 12:12 pm

Well being someone who does not want kids I don't see why it should be up to someone else whether I have an abortion or not. I think my compromise on that would be maybe a deadline...but not like that one in arkansas or whatever where their deadline is before most woman will even realize they are pregnant. It would have to be reasonable, like enough time for the woman to learn she is pregnant and pursue an abortion as soon as possible if that is their choice.

But yeah aside from being financially and likely mentally incapable of taking care of a baby...there are health risks with pregnancy itself, and I am not really willing to take those risks. I know sometimes there are mental changes that can happen and such, I already have enough on my plate with keeping my already existing mental issues in check. I don't want to risk falling into severe mental instability again after it taking so long to get where I am now.

Seems weird there are people who think someone who isn't me and doesn't have my experience should make the decision of what I am to do when I get pregnant, seems invasive. That said I've never gotten pregnant...maybe if I did, I wouldn't end up aborting certainly hard to say for sure since I've never had to make that decision. Either way it should be my choice.


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17 Jun 2019, 12:15 pm

People who identify their political oponents with hate are quite likely full of hate themselves.

Doesn't matter which side.


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17 Jun 2019, 2:42 pm

Sexism and age discrimination come in all political parties

"Hate" has a negative connotation

So anyone accused of "hate" looks bad already

Oversimplified



Banjo54
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17 Jun 2019, 3:40 pm

Neither are correct. Those are just generalizations made by political extremists.
Although these generalizations are true in some cases, they aren't the norm. Pro-choicers aren't "anti-baby" by nature, and pro-lifers aren't misogynistic by nature.



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18 Jun 2019, 4:06 am

i saw all i needed to see, in the reaction of the bullying crowds around some abortion clinics - people in the crowds shouting foul epithets at the women entering/exiting the clinic. this nasty behavior surely cannot be driven by love for fetuses. there is something else going on, and misogyny only scratches the surface.



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18 Jun 2019, 11:50 am

I think the pro-life position is more about religious deontology than outright misogyny, although misogyny comes into play with internalized double standards and ignorance regarding gendered disparities in terms of sex and reproduction. I don't think the average pro lifer consciously "hates women." I know a lot of people are going to hate this term, but it's a good example of "Institutional Patriarchy." It doesn't require active antipathy.

I think the pro-abortion position is far more ethically sound if one analyzes the positive effects abortion has on both women's sovereignty and on curbing generational poverty.


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