Can you manipuate people?

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I probably could, I just don't want to. I have a pathological desire tell the truth and to do things for myself (if I reasonably can do them myself, otherwise I'll just straightforwardly ask/pay someone). I don't think manipulation is always necessarily wrong. It's just that I flinch from doing it. Not very logical of me.

I admire people who can strategically do it in things like chess and other games. I like The Art of War. I believe to be a successful leader, you have to be good at it. I guess you just need a bit of distance from people to be good at it. Doing to friends or family, or general individuals, is repugnant to me.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 07 Nov 2010, 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well I hate to make a contraversal point, but depression tends to make you quite a self absorbed person consumed in the quandries of your own existance that other people don't even enter into the equation. It's a shame that honest open discussion of mental health is still hasn't quite manifested itself yet as I imagine most people don't percieve of people with mental health conditions being selifsh and self centred but a condition like bi-polar has an impact on the family and friends of an individual and not just the person going through the condition. Having a former partner with bi polar and an uncle with bi polar I'm somwhat burned out on bi polar people in general

It's not manipulation if they ask for a hug, or you've hugged them before, so you've entered a 'hug me if I'm down' contract.

It's manipulation to lie to people to make them feel better. I'm not sure if that's morally wrong or not, but I can't bring myself to do it.

@daspie: hey sorry, I was really laughing out loud as I read your post yesterday
Your post sounds like: NTs become supernatural power at the age of 3 and aspies remains babies.
I think its funny.

Why? -Its simply impossible to read minds or to attribute mental states to anyone.
You can only make assumptions in these cases, (note: its not based on facts) and therefore you can never be completely sure, but it is possible to be very good at it.

I think you are stuck in a thought about being ret*d or something, but the only thing that you dont have (if you are aspie) is empathy. This "ability" helpes NTs to understand each other emotionally, which makes it easier for them to "guess" what other people are up to. On the contrary theyre not good at guessing what an aspie is braining about, and make big mistakes (at least do I experience this regulary).
People think they understand me all the time, but I dont go around being convinced of understanding everybody else, because I go crazy of all the possibilities, and it therefore doesnt really interest me. I like facts!

To return to the topic, manipulation: if you want to manipulate somebody, you make the first move, so you will create a thought in others, therefore you dont need much ability to guess what they are thinking.

Here's an article about the morality of deception:

http://www.sonshi.com/deception.html

In short, deception itself is amoral. The ends it achieves determine its moral status. The lie is only moral if it helps to preserve the wellbeing of others. I consider my tendency not to lie as part of my overall tendency to be rigid, which can sometimes be a bad thing. I hope I can one day lie at the right time and avoid it at the wrong time.

People in general aren't out to screw you over. They just want to get what they want. You are the same right? You have no malice towards other people, only strong ambitions and desires. It is better to do what is necessary to be successful, nothing more - no superfluity.

I'm sure you know this already. You don't generally seem like an embittered person. It's not as simple as eat or be eaten. It's take all the precautions necessary to avoid being eaten and eat when it is necessary.

Most successful people do care about morals, because you have to have credibility and a good reputation. Again, you probably already know this.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 07 Nov 2010, 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Im wondering how much lying has to do with manipulation at all.

There are people who dont know that they manipulate others. All you need is a bunch of self esteem and some convincing opinions, you dont even need to be smart. If people accept the opinions they are feeded with, it can be called manipulation.

But the purposeful manipulation is off course more interesting. Then a person convinces somebody about an opinion for what reason so ever. E.g. Fun? Power? It could be useful? Satisfaction of convincing others?

I can manipulate for fun for a couple of (minutes)/secounds, until its too funny so I have to laugh -and before it could become uncomfortable for the person Im serving my "fake" opinions.

yes, i would agree with that. mental illness of all sorts seems to enable people to do whatever they want in order to feel better internally. my sister was very goal-oriented and would do a whole lot of lying or emotional plays to get her objective. and then she would laugh that i was such a sucker. how is that any different from a bully?

i probably could manipulate if i worked at it, but all i have to do is think about how it felt to be manipulated and i don't even want to try.

not everyone is sinister about it. i can forgive the maipulations of a guy who looks at me with puppy-dog eyes and says, "i am wretchedly bad at ironing this shirt. can you please help me?" in a silly situation like that, we are both fully aware that i don't have a big strong talent at pressing, but that he is manipulating my soft-heartedness to give him a hand. (but i don't even reciprocate and go that far with manipulation when given the chance)

I am sometimes accused of being "manipulative" or "immoral" by NTs and sociopaths.
It happens when they ask me for some favor and when I refuse and remind them about situations when they violated my personal boundaries and refused to give me a favor.
Than they say something about me being manipulative or not altruistic at all.
They are all altruists and socialists when they need to take, but when it comes to giving they are all plain individualists (that part of human nature is why communism and socialism always fails).

Thing is I have my special interests, unconventional ways of solving problems ect . so when I ask for a favor, they always ask :

Why you need it ?

If I answer truth I end up being ridiculed face to face or worse behind my back and of course they refuse to give me a favor.

If I answer something like: Dude, why do you care ? If you want just help me if not w/e. They refuse ...

Only way to get some favor is to lie and with our social intelligence and clumsiness/body language its hard ...
Sometimes I can lie, but its rarely succesfull. Only way to do it is to imitate what they say and how NTs answer some questions. I guess thats when I am really being manipulative.

People, at least in the professional world, will screw you over if doing so will benefit them. Bill Gates did a hell of a lot of that while he was at Microsoft, that's why he's so rich and the company's so big despite the fact the software they produce is awful.

Look at all the rich bankers, too. They screwed the whole economy up, screwed the average tax payer over, screwed the government over, and continue to prosper!

I'm a nice person when it comes to personal matters. Well, I like to think I am, anyway. But business is business.

Successful people have to maintain their credibility and reputation, sure. But to do that, you merely have to make sure the outside world only sees the good side of things. If you pay attention to the media, you'll see a lot of famous, rich, and successful people have bad things about them and/or their business leaked to the public. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. A lot more goes on behind closed doors.

This is a big reason why a lot of Aspies can use their Asperger's as an excuse for their lack of success, they say they're too honest and they're too nice. Well, the world ain't nice to us, and the world ain't even nice to NTs. So why should we be nice to it?

And while they're online complaining about it and coming up with excuses, the Aspies who have the opposite state of mind are getting rich.

The way I see it, you should exploit whatever you can to make yourself as successful, rich, or whatever it is you want for yourself, as possible. Because if you don't, someone else is only gonna come along and exploit you for their own success anyway. Eat or be eaten. It isn't nice because the world isn't nice. But it's how it works.

I wouldn't say manipulate, but I am VERY good at charming people into doing things I want them to.

I have manipulated people before. I'm good at catching changes in facial expression and body movement that might give me general ideas to how they are feeling.

It's less that I know what they're thinking and more like I can predict what they'll do. I like to say that I'm one of the nicest scumbags anyone could ever meet.

Asp-Z, you seem very stuck on using manipulation in a dog eat dog sense, which even though there are people here saying manipulation isn't always so bad... in a dog eat dog world sense it usually is fairly unethical. It doesn't matter if other people use manipulation to boost themselves in the world, because there are truly less vile and lazy ways to succeeding. I know a man who maybe makes around $500,000 a year (Just guessing) and he's one of the nicest people I've ever met even behind the scenes. He got where he is through charisma and intelligence, and not deception and back stabbing. So when he does die people won't be thinking thank god that jack ass is dead, but will actually feel loss. I'm sure it was very hard for him to reach his success in that manner, but in the long run he's gained more than just money, but also love and respect which makes his 500k more rich than Bill Gates' uncountable sums of money in my opinion.

Also manipulation is more than just a game for the manipulator. There are people who will try and ruin you if they catch on to your game. For example I can be deceived and manipulated a few times before I catch on, but that's where my wild card is hidden. I'm not an idiot, so when I catch on the manipulator just thinks their next trick is routine and that I'm a fool. Let's put a situation up in the air. You and I are very high up in a business. You constantly get me to do things for you... maybe say writing up reports that you don't want to take the time to. I've caught on that you have been using me in this manner more times than once. I may even just be doing the reports now just to give you a false sense that I don't know you are deceiving me. A big report is needed to be written up and would be job threatening if you don't turn it into your superior. It's more work than you want to shell out so you hand it off to me expecting my reliability to get it done. The next day your boss wants it... and I haven't done it understanding how important it was to you and your job. You get fired for losing the game, and I take your job not out of manipulation but simple deception on your belief that you were manipulating me. It's a harsh game and I wouldn't play with it in the real world unless you truly know the game I'm not saying that's something you would fall for or do, but that's just a simple example. Really there are many people who don't take kindly to manipulation. I also look into deception more so than what other people would be willing to do to you if they find out you are tricking them.

If you want to look toward learning manipulation in a dog eat dog world sense... make sure you learn how well. It isn't a silly game that is taken lightly. Also know that if you fail manipulation, there are permanent hits to your reputation to every person who finds out what you are doing. Most people have the ability to hold life long grudges and may even spread around your rep letting others know you aren't trustworthy because of your acts. This is in a sense why it is better to try and succeed in an honest manner... because in the end you wont be scorned but respected for your successes

Also with respect for your successes you are less likely to be targeted for domination. The man I mentioned above is my father's boss. My father respects him to the point that he has no interest in trying to take him out and replace him. Really that sounds like the best way to succeed since the man definitely doesn't even need to watch his back in his high position

Not really, the subject just happened to have come up and I have quite strong views on it.



That's pretty good for a salaried job. But I'd rather take more money even if it meant no one liked me. Hardly anyone likes me anyway.



Your example sounds more like simple delegation than manipulation, but you do make a good point.

Generally, though, manipulation in the business world is done to have access to something the person you're manipulating has. A typical example you see on films, and probably in real life, all the time, is a someone who wants to get high up sucking up to the boss. This is a "weak" form of manipulation in itself. Then, in fact, the boss may very use this guy to do stuff in a similar way you describe.

However, the difference here is that, if you are high up in a company and you've got to a point where people are sucking up to you like that, it's fairly unlikely that they'll screw you over.

Of course, it isn't impossible, but if this person is at a lower status in the company, the boss could easily get him fired and go ahead and damage his reputation too.

In the end, I believe a situation where the boss was screwed over would do more damage to the screwer.



Good point. It's important to become an expert.



Once I've made a good hundred million (to be adjusted for inflation), I will retire to Monaco anyways

You would be right in the example of ultimately screwing your boss... since who's going to fire the big guy, but I was mostly just stating to be careful with manipulation. Referring directly with my quote though I wasn't saying that I was your assistant either. If I was your assistant it would make sense that I would be punished for not doing my task. If I was a similar ranking employee and you were manipulating me to do your work for you was the main example. Again it wasn't meant to be an ultra realistic example but with those bars holding the situation... I wouldn't be punished as you would likely even be too embarrassed to tell the boss that I had been doing your work for you. Even if you told the boss... really there's not much that could be done to me. But yes kissing up to your boss and screwing him in front of higher ups would be a huge NO

You have a point though as it isn't the most likely situation . It was just the only situation I could quickly think of I could have used a better thought up example but I didn't want to reference a video game I didn't like. Again though it's just a make believe example... it wasn't meant to be realistic. It was made to express a point that manipulation can go wrong if you aren't wary as not everyone is oblivious to it.

Edit: I'll just post the nerdy example even though I hated the game . In Mass Effect 2, you die and Some insanely rich guy spends like billions upon billions of dollars to bring you back to life. He then sends you on missions leaving out important info that is vital to them. Upon returning from each mission... he shiftily complements you and just says he knew you could handle yourself. His hand is leaving you in the dark and trying to kiss your ass when you do something he likes. Anyway I spent the entire game doing as he asked and in the final moments of the game he reveals his hand and tells you to do what you were meant for. Just as a kick to the teeth I defied what he asked and destroyed the very thing he was trying to use me for to salvage. He being an egotistical jack ass actually thought he was manipulating me when I in fact from the beginning already knew something was amiss. Manipulation is easily combated with deception. Also I don't know if it's a personal trait or an aspie trait but I always sense something is amiss when I get excessive compliments (sometimes the tone of a single compliment can even make me draw my guard)... it could be a sixth sense to the human world I guess.

business =/= professional

I do know a few professionals in the business world and I do know how their mind works, but I also know other professionals in other areas and they're nothing like these bastards.



Wow, kid, you have such a warped view on what it means to be "successful" that one can't help feeling sorry for you. I imagine you won't be that much different from the NTs who look down on Aspies because we don't fit their model of success.