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Vegetarian?
God no, me become intelligent because of meat 68%  68%  [ 80 ]
Yes, big time 32%  32%  [ 37 ]
Total votes : 117

walk-in-the-rain
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16 Dec 2006, 1:34 pm

SolaCatella wrote:
Yes, growing veggies is labor-intensive, but it is actually less so than is hunting if you factor in hunting's much less certain chance of success plus prey species (if you hunt megafauna especially) habit of trying to kill you. I believe the current evidence is against the meat = intelligence hypothesis, especially considering how little big game hunter-gatherer peoples actually bring in. On the other hand, strong indicators of decreased health, including lack of height, shortened lives, and the like seem to have correlated to agriculture's acceptance, indicating that although you get more certain food and more of it by farming, you get less of a variety and so less healthy food. Nevertheless, nature tends to favor the former as far as evolutionary strategies are concerned, considering that the agricultural peoples typically were able to have far more children than hunter-gatherer peoples.


One problem with being exclusively agricultural though is - as many poor farmers were acquainted with - the whole crop can be wiped out abruptly leaving nothing to eat. People really needed to be flexible enough to both hunt/fish to sustain themselves, gather, and plant.



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16 Dec 2006, 1:47 pm

walk-in-the-rain wrote:
SolaCatella wrote:
Yes, growing veggies is labor-intensive, but it is actually less so than is hunting if you factor in hunting's much less certain chance of success plus prey species (if you hunt megafauna especially) habit of trying to kill you. I believe the current evidence is against the meat = intelligence hypothesis, especially considering how little big game hunter-gatherer peoples actually bring in. On the other hand, strong indicators of decreased health, including lack of height, shortened lives, and the like seem to have correlated to agriculture's acceptance, indicating that although you get more certain food and more of it by farming, you get less of a variety and so less healthy food. Nevertheless, nature tends to favor the former as far as evolutionary strategies are concerned, considering that the agricultural peoples typically were able to have far more children than hunter-gatherer peoples.


One problem with being exclusively agricultural though is - as many poor farmers were acquainted with - the whole crop can be wiped out abruptly leaving nothing to eat. People really needed to be flexible enough to both hunt/fish to sustain themselves, gather, and plant.

True, although one of the benefits of agriculture is that people generally have a little surplus that will give them something to subsist on, whereas hunter-gatherers almost never do, so in the case of an all-over drought/famine it could be argued that hunter-gatherer people have it worse off.

Nevertheless, overspecialization (in food-gathering methods especially) usually is a problem.


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walk-in-the-rain
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16 Dec 2006, 2:01 pm

SolaCatella wrote:
walk-in-the-rain wrote:
SolaCatella wrote:
Yes, growing veggies is labor-intensive, but it is actually less so than is hunting if you factor in hunting's much less certain chance of success plus prey species (if you hunt megafauna especially) habit of trying to kill you. I believe the current evidence is against the meat = intelligence hypothesis, especially considering how little big game hunter-gatherer peoples actually bring in. On the other hand, strong indicators of decreased health, including lack of height, shortened lives, and the like seem to have correlated to agriculture's acceptance, indicating that although you get more certain food and more of it by farming, you get less of a variety and so less healthy food. Nevertheless, nature tends to favor the former as far as evolutionary strategies are concerned, considering that the agricultural peoples typically were able to have far more children than hunter-gatherer peoples.


One problem with being exclusively agricultural though is - as many poor farmers were acquainted with - the whole crop can be wiped out abruptly leaving nothing to eat. People really needed to be flexible enough to both hunt/fish to sustain themselves, gather, and plant.

True, although one of the benefits of agriculture is that people generally have a little surplus that will give them something to subsist on, whereas hunter-gatherers almost never do, so in the case of an all-over drought/famine it could be argued that hunter-gatherer people have it worse off.

Nevertheless, overspecialization (in food-gathering methods especially) usually is a problem.


They both have their drawbacks really and some of them depended upon the area they lived in. If your soil/climate wasn't conducive for planting - you were better off hunter/gathering or if you lived in an area suitable for a variety of crop growing than they could be more benefits to focusing on that.



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16 Dec 2006, 2:34 pm

here’s something human bodies are not really design for eating pure veg - unless you use protein substitutes so I would like to know if veg people pure veg people take any pills or something?

just something I saw about a monkey and elephant to human way the body digests food as the monkey had a chamber that bacteria take more of the energy out of it then into they stomach and comes out like slop lol, elephant most of the food is not digested..

also would like to know your toilet habits as tigers only go to the loo 2s a week....

I only go 1s a week just something I thought I might bring up lol and meat eaters are highly adaptable to changing they diet than a person who is a veg if they need to eat meat so don’t know where your getting that from....

just thought maybe this can tell who’s digests food better with toilet habits know its a lil flawed but just interested.

Missed this part out I still think we where more omnivores...

all though allot of human sub species have died off and we evolved..



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16 Dec 2006, 3:11 pm

I think it's hard to have a discussion on toilet habits as evidence of anything. We have a strong nature vs nuture battle going on that affects our digestive system then our longevity as a whole.
I eat crap, absolutely the worst foods possible on a frequent basis. However, in doing that, I also eat really good foods too. I dislike eating vegetables a lot so I eat super veggies, sweet potatoes, carrots, spinach, golden potatoes. I use olive oil, peanut oil and butter in my cooking. My bad cholesterol is low, good cholesterol is high, my blood pressure is always low/normal and I'm moderately overweight. (35lbs over ideal range)

I've tried eating less red meat, more vegetarian options and felt horrible. Soy is very hard to digest. I could probably survive in LatinAmerica as a vegetarian, but my mouth would water everytime I saw a goat.

Overspecialization in agriculture and livestock is definitely a problem. In the late 19th/early 20th century there was an "epidemic" of Pellagra in the South that turned out to be a Vitamin B3 deficiency. The problem was poor people were eating mostly corn which isn't a proper staple. When they learned of the specific source of the deficiency, the gov't enforced enriching white flour with B vitamins.
Of course, that doesn't solve the true problem, which is over dependence on a few staples.



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16 Dec 2006, 3:56 pm

"here’s something human bodies are not really design for eating pure veg - unless you use protein substitutes so I would like to know if veg people pure veg people take any pills or something?"
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As a vegan having read some things posted here , there is so much I'd like to coment on but I don't have the time right now. However, protein seems to be one big thing people get concerned about (usually parents of vegetarian teens from my experience reading).

One does not need protein suppliments (I've only ever heard of body builders being concerned with this type of thing really). The average meat-centred diet provides way more protein than is needed (actually too much protein can be bad for the kidneys). It's easy to get enough protein from nuts, beans/legumes, protein, tempeh etc

http://www.vegparadise.com/protein.html

Olympic track star Carl Lewis had a vegan diet during the peak of his athletic career (I'm not sure if he's vegan still).

Here's a page mentioning him and talking about vegan athletes

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medical ... wsid=26480\\

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"Vegan Protein Sources
Where do vegans get their protein? It's simple. The plant-based diet includes a wide variety of whole foods consisting of beans, whole-grains, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, along with products made from these natural foods, such as tofu, tempeh, and meat analogs. Those who believe plant protein is inferior to animal protein may be surprised to learn that plant proteins contain the same 23 amino acids as animal proteins."
------------------


The only dietary concern for vegans is B12 intake. Although vitamin B12 is produced in the human large intestine, it appears to not absorbable at that location. There are plenty of food fortifies with B12 . Here's an article about B12.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/everyvegan/



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16 Dec 2006, 4:27 pm

In contrast, the proteins from plants are called "incomplete proteins" because they do not contain all the amino acids the body needs. In fact, no single plant contains all the amino acids the body needs. However, it is possible to obtain all the amino acids the body needs from a vegetarian diet,

""" provided a good variety of grains, pulses, cereals and vegetables are eaten. """

Just thought i would add this as might be the reason for the sideeffects

The proteins in meat and fish provide all the amino acids the body needs, and in approximately the right proportions. For this reason, they are called "complete proteins".

Department of Health. Dietary Reference Values for Food Energy and Nutrients for the United Kingdom. HMSO.1991.


I would like to know if veg people pure veg people take any pills or something? that came back to this.... which b12 is they is more listed on that other site of other vits and that you need...

"here’s something human bodies are not really design for eating pure veg - unless you use protein substitutes so I would like to know if veg people pure veg people take any pills or something?" which comes back to this don't just mean protein...

Is another question that poped up do you monitor these levels to make sure you have enough?

pure veg TheMachine1 - butter you need a cow or can u use plant milk??



Last edited by logitechdog on 16 Dec 2006, 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TheMachine1
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16 Dec 2006, 5:09 pm

I think people in western countries eat twice the needed protein. So its fairly easy to
get enough protein from a veg diet witout even trying. People naturely combine different incomplete proteins to make balance ones (rice&beans, nut butters&bread
those are the staples of most veg diets) Also most the worlds veg eaters have no problems eating dairy protein (near perfect protein). Thats one thing they do with all those cows in India.



DK8290
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16 Dec 2006, 5:49 pm

It was once thought that vegetarians must combine certain foods in the same meal to create the presence of all proteins (all amino acids can be found in plant proteins but often in different ones) but now it's known that they can be stored for days so as long as one has a balanced varied diet of plants, I really don't see where the argument is against this.

http://www.ivu.org/faq/protein.html

http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ad ... U_HTML.htm

http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ad ... U_HTML.htm

Even omnivores should learn about diets as many people have deficiencies due to high paced work life and grabbing fast food on the run so I really don't see how knowledge of diets is only a vegetarian issue.


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"I would like to know if veg people pure veg people take any pills or something? that came back to this.... which b12 is they is more listed on that other site of other vits and that you need..."
------------------

I'm not sure what the last part of that question really was so maybe you'd like to rephrase it. It looks like it accidentally has a few typos or something.

I used to take a chewable multi-vitamin which had a bunch of things including B12 but I haven't for a while now.

As far as the idea of vitamin suppliments goes, many omnivores take these because many non-vegetarians are deficient in things (many peoples' everyday diets involve fast food and junk food). I don't see the fact that someone might take a vitamin as a sign that their diet isn't supported by some idea of "what's natural". In or modern societies, omnivore food just like vegetarian food is aquired by the average person at stores at the end of a very complex assortment of technologies, transportations, refridgerations and handling.

If one wanted to , one could eat eggs to get their B12 . If I were to do that , I would search for a source that I knew the hens were not confined to the living space of a piece of writing paper, not having their beaks partically sliced off to prevent pecking (done to "solve" the pecking of other birds due to the forced overly dense confinement)

--------------------

I don't use milk but it's nice to have a 'spread' on toast and stuff like that.

I use this vegan "buttery spread" called Earth Balance

http://www.earthbalance.net/product.html#p3


It's non GMO (ie not genetically modified).

"Earth Balance® Margarine
Natural Buttery Spread

2004 AMERICAN TASTING INSTITUTE award for best tasting, natural, buttery spread.
No Hydrogenated Oil
Non-GMO Ingredients
No Trans-Fatty Acids
All Natural (NO PRESERVATIVES)
No Artificial Flavor
Lactose Free
Gluten Free
100% Vegan

Our balanced blend of natural oils is U.S. patented to help improve the good to bad cholesterol ratio!"



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16 Dec 2006, 6:05 pm

Omnivores think you should look this up as I think your thinking of carnivore :)

I mean your plant milk has vit and min mixed into it to make it as good as normal milk. What I am banging on about is what humans where as *first* 1 is saying 1 thing I think we where omnivores, maybe that part has to be read back as you might be thinking I am talking today to figure out as we have evolved since then so are we the same or can we really do a pure veg without substitutes of factory produced products.. If we could do pure veg we would have the same organ the monkey has that has bacteria in it to get more energy out of the veg then drops into our stomach...


Sub spices of humans died off and left us...


What your living on is a product made, to make up as us not having this organ..



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16 Dec 2006, 6:39 pm

"What your living on is a product made"
-------------


Actually I'm not sure why you would think vegetarian diets are more based on "products" than modern omnivore diets (omnivores are what most peoples' diets are as most people do not eat only meat so they aren't carnivores. Even brown bears are omnivores as they eat berries and things like that ;-) ). The modern meat from chickens, cows, turkeys and other animals is quite different than a long time ago (modern meat turkeys can't even physically breed due to how they have been selectively molded to have larger 'white meat' breast areas ... it doesn't matter since it is all dfone by people inserting probes to artificially inseminate female turkeys). In modern methods, antibiotics are used in large amounts to prevent disease in over-crowded conditions and to boost growth speed. In most cases, cows are only partically grass fed and spend the latter part of their lives before slaughter on an un-natural diet with a lot of corn. I've even heard of dedicated "meat-eaters" complain about this stuff ... some only buy purely grass grazed steak and not the fatter modern meat.

http://www.sierraclub.org/e-files/grassfed.asp

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/rele ... llan.shtml

Speaking for myself alone, actually as a vegan, I buy more raw veggies than most omnivores many of whom grab boxes and pre-made things off the shelf to simple cook quickly once they get home. These foods have more preservatives and chemicals than my diet which I mostly cook myself (one reason being that most pre-made products contain milk ingredients and eggs ....and additionally I just don't want to have all those preservatives and chemicals).



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16 Dec 2006, 6:58 pm

Going to leave this as I think ill be trying to explain what I mean for a year to get it in the right way, that humans without the high vit min mixed products into the veg diet you would not be able to stay on a pure veg diet.

As if a human can truely live on a pure veg diet...

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As to a mix or semi-veg ....

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As we don't have the organ to process veg only... without a mixed high end product.....

----

Yes meat has been changed but it was they before...... and also plant's

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But to be on a pure veg you need to make sure you get enough of all the stuff you would get on the other diet's....

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They for would a human really be able to live on a pure - veg diet - with the fact we do not have this bacteria organ before our stomach - or could we without using vit and min mixed products like pills and plant milk "" that has vit and min mixed in to make it as good as normal milk "" - or not..

-------

If that don't explain what I mean ill get back to you when I can make sense lol

This might help too say a emp went off and we could no longer use our machines - the high end vit - min mixers will not be able to be made.... -- missed out something got to destroy the chemistry set too something happened to them "" banned to practice chemistry "" they its gone lol



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16 Dec 2006, 10:41 pm

It is natural for humans to eat meat, it's part of our natural diet, it makes us healthier (unless it's really fatty). Being a sports player, I have to eat meat to stay healthy, but I perfer carbohydrates, well at least for me, meat is essentail.


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17 Dec 2006, 10:16 am

I don't think logitechdog is trying to say one can't be healthy on a vegetarian diet, just that it takes a lot of planning to fit it all in.
Either extreme (over eating meat, abstaining from meat) has its risks. It's safe to say that the average American overeats meat and simple carbs. And as a consequence, is open to the risks of diabetes, heart disease, hypertension. Add that to our weird obsession with thinness, and many fat people are distressed because they don't change their dietary habits long enough to keep the weight off.
Nothing wrong with keeping a balance though, and if you can be a vegan without obsessing over it, then good. In taking care of my son, who has peculiar eating habits, I have learned that you don't need to eat "3 squares" every day. That is a bad habit from yesteryear. It's probably better if you space out your foods and not force yourself to eat all the food groups at once.



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22 Dec 2006, 8:56 pm

Its bad enough that there are vegetarians in this world that see their status as a symbol of superior morality (not all) but now they will have fuel to claim that they are smarter. :sigh:



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22 Dec 2006, 9:12 pm

CRACK wrote:
Its bad enough that there are vegetarians in this world that see their status as a symbol of superior morality (not all) but now they will have fuel to claim that they are smarter. :sigh:


I do not remember what the original post said and did not read everything said in this thread. But I read the news story the other day on what likely prompted the posts. The study said people with higher IQ tend to live a healthier lifestyle. Thats all that was said. They assumed vegaterianism was an example of a healther life style. And its debatable. But no one outside of this thread said not-eating animals boost IQ.