I need to discuss my feelings in a safe space.

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AceofPens
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14 Jul 2020, 4:50 pm

playgroundlover22695 wrote:
I'm sorry AceofPen but I don't agree and I don't really appreciate my feelings being spun into me being a pedaphile. The fact that I took care of someone who needed me everyday and gave my whole heart to a child who felt so very unloved many times doesn't make me a pedaphile. It also doesn't make me a creepy person just because I'm sad about losing him. Yes I may have said some things that raise some flags, but you're spinning into a sexual thing which it most definitely isn't. Yes I do hold a doll to sleep at night. I admit it. But that's only because cuddling with a childhood doll at night is soothing after a long, tiring day of sadness and heartache. A lot of people sleep with a doll or stuffed animal for comfort...I somewhat see your point about the gender reversal but please don't turn me feeling a little depressed and worried about a kid who got his head bashed into the wall by his brother that I spend tireless hours trying to help into me being a sex offender. I know you didn't say it, but I can read between the lines. :?


The point is that we don't know you, and what you describe is what pedophiles or other predators (not all are sexual) tell themselves to justify their behavior. You remind me more of The Kindergarten Teacher than a pedophile, though, which is why I never used the word in my post. ( If I thought you were a pedophile, I would say so outright. I have no qualms about that kind of thing - I've seen too much damage done by people being unwilling to call out other adults on inappropriate behavior. ) Not everyone with this behavior is a predator of some sort, of course (although such actions are always misguided), but you're acting like a predator would. I don't mind pointing out red flags if a child's safety is involved. We are all capable of evil, and that evil always begins with small, "innocent" indulgences, courtesy of our self-idealism. Guarding yourself against that is how you avoid corruption.

That's why I'm being more direct. I don't like that some people are telling you to be assured that what you're doing is harmless, because it clearly has the potential (note emphasis) to develop into something that could damage the child. It has already hurt you, clearly. Becoming emotionally dependent on a child - no matter what spin you put on it - is not something that should be encouraged or praised. Worse, he sounds like he's becoming emotionally dependent on you, as well. You have promised him a personal relationship, the nature of which oversteps the boundaries of your profession. That act can't be justified. None of this can end well, and I don't feel like you understand the need to squash your obsession and wean this child off of his dependence on you for his own good. The child will have other people in his life, I hope, but in any case, you do not seem to be in a place where you could have a healthy relationship with him. You can be a positive influence in his life only if you maintain professional boundaries, both in private and at work.


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playgroundlover22695
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14 Jul 2020, 5:28 pm

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FWIW, I just wanted to step in and say that from what I could tell, StarTrekker didn't describe a sexually inappropriate relationship with her previous teacher. She described a situation with a teacher who she became very close with due to how far they were both willing to go in terms of emotional closeness (and then he was the one who had to draw the boundary with her after he had "let her in" which resulted in a lot of pain for her). There definitely are some similarities between your cases. This was a "father figure" thing, not a sexual one. You described this kid feeling like your child, so I think there's no reason to get defensive. I feel that her intention here was good and empathetic and not meant to suggest any pedophilia going on. I think we can all take that off the table (no one feels this was sexually inappropriate). This is clearly not a sexual thing with the kid and we all understand that. The question is whether it's appropriate on an emotional (not physical) level. That may very well not be our place to decide on this forum, because that's a professional ethical thing between you and your employer, client, etc. All schools and institutions are different.

Not coming at it from a place of judgment, but one from logic instead...instead of saying "it isn't your place/your right, etc to be all these roles for this kid, you're doing a bad thing", I instead say "how can you expect to be able to do this without exhausting yourself?". I think we've all had that parent or therapist who we feel really close with and realize it's a special kind of relationship (again, not sexual), but nevertheless sometimes it can mean this person is being spread thin professionally. They can't help but want to get close to us because they're human and they care, and it's instinctual to them to meet our demands, but is it fair to them (in this case, is it fair to you)? You're just one person...to be parent, nurse, teacher, therapist, friend, mentor, etc., this is too much of a burden for one person. So I think that's really what resulted in this. It's not that you were doing something morally wrong or unethical in terms of harming the kid, quite the opposite, but this was too much emotionally for one person to take on and it had some unfortunate side effects. Teacher is teacher, nurse is nurse, caregiver is caregiver...these are labels that we at least try to adhere to because on some level they allow us to not overextend ourselves, so that our work is clear and we know what is within the scope of our duties given that role. When the labels become too open-ended and malleable, this is when we become overwhelmed and don't know what to do. I see this as a form of burnout. Just my thoughts.


Hi, I'm sorry if I sound defensive or if you thought I was trashing Star Trekker. I was actually referring to AceofPens post, who did indeed insinuate that I am acting like a pedaphile. He said my relationship with this kid is and was always totally inappropriate. He also suggested that I am person on an evil path who will hurt children and that I have no business wanting to help and love this child because unless I abandon him NOW, I will cause him intense pain which he doesn't need to feel because of my pure selfishness. That's why I felt the need to defend myself.



eyelessshiver
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14 Jul 2020, 6:55 pm

I see that now...yes my mistake, my apologies.

I feel like the ethics and stuff just isn't up to us on this forum. That's between you and your employer etc. Would I personally get this close to a kid? Definitely not. Is it ok for you to? Not really for me to judge. There are other people in your life better situated to make this judgment (not me, not us on here). That's my opinion anyway.

I can however give you some advice regarding what would help keep you emotionally safe and better able to do your job without these kinds of stresses. I can't really speak to the kid because he's not present and can't speak for himself. It's a rather complicated situation imo. I don't see the line between "right and wrong" being as clear-cut here as someone like AceOfPens sees it, but I don't consider myself without moral compass by any means (nor do I see a cautious and emotionally distant approach as necessarily a bad one; it's probably similar to how I'd approach it myself). I do believe in calling people out when they've done something wrong (sometimes), but at the same time I often don't feel it's my place to do so, which is kind of a paradox I guess. I usually leave the moral questions for others to figure out on their own (I don't like parenting other adults, lol, that's just me). It's not that I don't care, I just feel there's more of a personal choice thing there and I don't like to tell others what to do.

I think part of that has to do with the fact that I am just going by what you're telling us, and don't know the full situation in all its intricacies. The thing I can tell for sure is you've caused some problems for yourself by getting this emotionally involved with the kid. I have no idea what the kid or his family's side of it is like but it doesn't sound like anyone else has been hurt quite as badly as you (if at all). From what I can tell you have been doing (mostly) good things for the kid and his family.



playgroundlover22695
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14 Jul 2020, 7:59 pm

Eyelessshiver, I think it's like you said before. I was assigned to work with this child in multiple settings. I didn't cause the shutdown and when this all happened, this kid still needed someone to help him with his school work and his teacher had enough on her plate with the other 24 kids plus creating and posting assignments. I helped out as much as I could. She would handle math and I would create the reading assignment that she would post. I went on with this kid and helped him all day with his schoolwork as my job. It's not my fault I enjoyed it so much. But yes, it is hard sometimes when you look into the homes of the kids and see that they are left with teenagers while the parents go to work. Nothing against teenagers, they're great but they're not parents or even adults. I mean think about it, would you really want to go to a bunch of teenagers who picked on you if you were hungry or your head was pounding and you were a little 10 year old kid? My thinking is you'd be like him and go to the nearest adult for comfort and support, which is where I continued to come in. I could've been more distance and said "I'm sorry you have a headache right now but we need to get this done. Just work through the pain like I have to do when I have a headache. You're fine. You're hunger is not important right now, just get back to work so we can get this done." But that's just not me. Yes I encouraged him to keep going and fight through the issues, but I was much more kind and compassionate in the way I went about telling him to do so. I always would say "I am so sorry your head is hurting you right now. Why don't you rest your eyes for 5 minutes and take some deep breaths to relax and we can resume then. I'll set a timer." Or if it came to food I'd say "You most certainly can go get some food. Eating is important for you to concentrate." When he asked me how to make a taco I told him. I said "Put the meat in the microwave with a cover on it to avoid splattering for about 1 minute. Take it out and stir it up. Remember don't put the tin foil in the microwave. It's metal and will break it." I also told him like it was a lot of times like a parent would. I said "Listen, if you keep eating gummy worms and chocolate donuts all day you're going to get another bellyache. You need to find some better things to eat because I don't like it when you have a belly ache. I want you to be healthy because I care about you and your wellbeing is important to me." I would also message his mom telling her how he was feeling and doing each day. I know it's a mouthful, but that was our adventure. :|



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14 Jul 2020, 8:12 pm

Right, thank you for sharing. And from what I gather, all of what you did is totally in line and reasonable. What's wrong with any of that stuff, and what kind of good person would act much differently in the situation? This is why I don't see the problem being with your actions necessarily based on what you've told us, but rather with the fact you weren't prepared for there to be a change and then things came apart for you. I think it's a big assumption to make to say that you were moving towards some kind of predatory behavior. That's jumping to conclusions and I don't think that's right. It's actually not at all uncommon for teachers and other mentors to become involved in kids' lives and to develop actual (gasp) feelings for them. People don't need to have some knee-jerk reaction and start pointing the finger that people are predators or something just because they connect with children, that's overreacting and it's based on fear, not necessarily reality. Just because you ended up caring about the kid and feeling some love for him and sadness when you're cut off etc doesn't mean you're trying to take advantage of him.



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15 Jul 2020, 8:40 am

playgroundlover22695 wrote:
Hi, I'm sorry if I sound defensive or if you thought I was trashing Star Trekker. I was actually referring to AceofPens post, who did indeed insinuate that I am acting like a pedaphile. He said my relationship with this kid is and was always totally inappropriate. He also suggested that I am person on an evil path who will hurt children and that I have no business wanting to help and love this child because unless I abandon him NOW, I will cause him intense pain which he doesn't need to feel because of my pure selfishness. That's why I felt the need to defend myself.


No, you're acting like an emotional predator, which I clarified above because you projected accusations of pedophilia onto my post. I also clarified that the separation should be done in a healthy manner. You have to admit that you are emotionally dependent on him, and that is not healthy. It can and often does lead to abusive situations, as your dependence will make you want to keep him dependent on you. You DON'T have any business trying to love a child when your love is grounded in emotional dependence. It's a volatile situation.

Ultimately, there is no such thing as healthy obsessive love. If anyone here has read The Bridge of San Luis Rey they'll know what I'm talking about. Your relationship with this kid would fit alongside the narratives in that book; it's all about emotional dependence, falsely justified as love, that comes at a price for everyone involved. Doesn't make you a terrible person - the people in the book weren't evil, just misguided and ultimately redeemable. But it's terrible to continue such a relationship once you come into the knowledge of its nature. You must know that you are emotionally dependent on him. Everything you've said and done indicates it. That means that your love is unhealthy, and it can't continue in the same vein. Modify it, and if that's not possible, then you have to remove yourself from his life.

I strongly suggest that you read the book, as it's very relevant to your situation. It isn't so much that you or the characters were "pretending" to love their object - but their dependence tainted whatever love they had for the person and made it something damaging and potentially abusive.


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15 Jul 2020, 10:31 am

My son is 6 and has ADHD. I hope that he can find a supportive adult like you when he goes back to in person School this Fall. A person with ADHD can be terribly annoying to some, and an annoyed person may not treat the ADHD person with the kindness they deserve. Your patience is wonderful.

I also have a niece with ADHD. She’s now 21. She and her family have always lived a few states over. I’d say I started a real aunt/niece relationship with her when she was about 10. She has had a hard life, and I am sad to say that I don’t think the way my sister raised her has helped. It’s hard to come to love a child, but have no control over their welfare. You want to step in and be there for them, but you may not be allowed to, for whatever reason. I haven’t talked to my sister in a long time, but my niece texts with me periodically.

I say loosely stay in touch with your buddy. Maybe check in once or twice a year. He can contact you if he needs you. You’ve made a big difference in his life, so this isn’t letting him down or letting him go.

Then find another kid to help. Your buddy has already benefitted from your care. Someone else is out there who needs you as much or more than he did.

And please consider having your own child. Your story sounds to me like a person who has strong parental instincts and would be happiest getting to devote more time to caregiving.



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15 Jul 2020, 11:54 am

AceofPens wrote:
playgroundlover22695 wrote:
Hi, I'm sorry if I sound defensive or if you thought I was trashing Star Trekker. I was actually referring to AceofPens post, who did indeed insinuate that I am acting like a pedaphile. He said my relationship with this kid is and was always totally inappropriate. He also suggested that I am person on an evil path who will hurt children and that I have no business wanting to help and love this child because unless I abandon him NOW, I will cause him intense pain which he doesn't need to feel because of my pure selfishness. That's why I felt the need to defend myself.


No, you're acting like an emotional predator, which I clarified above because you projected accusations of pedophilia onto my post. I also clarified that the separation should be done in a healthy manner. You have to admit that you are emotionally dependent on him, and that is not healthy. It can and often does lead to abusive situations, as your dependence will make you want to keep him dependent on you. You DON'T have any business trying to love a child when your love is grounded in emotional dependence. It's a volatile situation.

Ultimately, there is no such thing as healthy obsessive love. If anyone here has read The Bridge of San Luis Rey they'll know what I'm talking about. Your relationship with this kid would fit alongside the narratives in that book; it's all about emotional dependence, falsely justified as love, that comes at a price for everyone involved. Doesn't make you a terrible person - the people in the book weren't evil, just misguided and ultimately redeemable. But it's terrible to continue such a relationship once you come into the knowledge of its nature. You must know that you are emotionally dependent on him. Everything you've said and done indicates it. That means that your love is unhealthy, and it can't continue in the same vein. Modify it, and if that's not possible, then you have to remove yourself from his life.

I strongly suggest that you read the book, as it's very relevant to your situation. It isn't so much that you or the characters were "pretending" to love their object - but their dependence tainted whatever love they had for the person and made it something damaging and potentially abusive.
I think you are being harsh. And also You should not go on a thread called "I need to discuss my feelings in a safe space." and Proceed to critize the OP You don't know them personally calling them an emotional predator is not only uncalled for but also abusive. Believe me I used to be the kind of person who did that.


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15 Jul 2020, 12:00 pm

I agree with the posters who say that the OP is a decent person and not some sort of “predator.”

I wish I had a lady like the OP when I was a lonely child.



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15 Jul 2020, 2:09 pm

Just btw the internet is not known for being a safe place ....... just for your information . Had to learn this the hard way myself ... plz be careful .


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eyelessshiver
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15 Jul 2020, 5:30 pm

Jakki wrote:
Just btw the internet is not known for being a safe place ....... just for your information . Had to learn this the hard way myself ... plz be careful .


I agree with this. It's like a playground (to use a handy simile). Yeah there is plenty of fun and satisfaction to be had, but there is also emotional and psychological danger, and the more you push yourself to have fun, learn, and put yourself out there, the bigger the risk is you'll fall and hurt yourself. You've got some friends on the playground but you also have people who will potentially become antagonistic with you. I've had people stalk and bother me on FB, other forums, etc etc. Some people are inherently bad online, they'll bait and troll others and seem to know how to get to people, even if you're generally hard to faze. Maybe we've all been like that at some point a little bit, I know I was in my adolescence. Then you have people who will argue with you if they disagree with you, and some people are inherently disagreeable, and will often be disagreeing (I've known people like this and been like this myself sometimes, essentially good and not out to get people per se but just couldn't help but find fault in others' opinions and liked to debate and argue). Some people will argue whereas some will not. Depending on your personality and what you bring to the table, socializing on the internet can result in a lot of friction with others online. You get the bad with the good.



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15 Jul 2020, 7:46 pm

Pieplup wrote:
I think you are being harsh. And also You should not go on a thread called "I need to discuss my feelings in a safe space." and Proceed to critize the OP You don't know them personally calling them an emotional predator is not only uncalled for but also abusive. Believe me I used to be the kind of person who did that.


I know that I'm being harsh (and I prefaced my first post to the OP with my intention to be more blunt, so if she was worried about that kind of response, there was no need for her to read on), but I think it is warranted here. This isn't the first time that someone has come to WP to talk about an unhealthy obsession with another person, and I don't think it's been dealt with harshly enough in the past. We even have a current member who is openly pedophilic about their obsession with a minor, and members hardly bat an eye at it. The posts aren't even removed from the site!

Ordinary "safe space" rules really can't apply to this situation - if I think a person's behavior has the potential to hurt someone, especially a child, I cannot in good conscience sit back and ignore it. It would be moral suicide. Also note that I did not call the OP an emotional predator - I said she was acting like an emotional predator would. I have made it clear several times that I recognize that I don't know the OP, that her behavior is not necessarily predatory, but that based on what she has written here, there are many glaring red flags that I feel obligated to address.

Plus, the relationship is 100% not a good one. OP's posts strongly suggest that she is emotionally dependent on the child. There's no alternative interpretation of her behavior. Can a person be emotionally dependent on a very vulnerable child in a healthy way or in a way that does not endanger the child's well-being? I seem to be the only person here who's been on the receiving end of a obsession like the OP's, and I can tell you that the answer is, "no." Some people here think that it sounds nice for a stranger to come into your life and make you their whole world. It's not. When you're someone's whole world, the thought of losing you, even a little, terrifies them. That's where the abuse comes in - dependence means they need to CONTROL you, by whatever means necessary. The fact that we don't know the OP - don't know how far she will go to keep this kid in her life - is why we need to worry. You have no idea of the kind of fallout that can come of something like this, the kind of damage it can cause, especially for a kid. And for it to happen to someone who is in such a state of mind as the child described? This is serious, and I have valid concerns for the child if the OP is determined to stay in his life forever (as she seems determined to do).


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15 Jul 2020, 8:07 pm

AceofPens wrote:
Pieplup wrote:
I think you are being harsh. And also You should not go on a thread called "I need to discuss my feelings in a safe space." and Proceed to critize the OP You don't know them personally calling them an emotional predator is not only uncalled for but also abusive. Believe me I used to be the kind of person who did that.


I know that I'm being harsh (and I prefaced my first post to the OP with my intention to be more blunt, so if she was worried about that kind of response, there was no need for her to read on), but I think it is warranted here. This isn't the first time that someone has come to WP to talk about an unhealthy obsession with another person, and I don't think it's been dealt with harshly enough in the past. We even have a current member who is openly pedophilic about their obsession with a minor, and members hardly bat an eye at it. The posts aren't even removed from the site!

Ordinary "safe space" rules really can't apply to this situation - if I think a person's behavior has the potential to hurt someone, especially a child, I cannot in good conscience sit back and ignore it. It would be moral suicide. Also note that I did not call the OP an emotional predator - I said she was acting like an emotional predator would. I have made it clear several times that I recognize that I don't know the OP, that her behavior is not necessarily predatory, but that based on what she has written here, there are many glaring red flags that I feel obligated to address.

Plus, the relationship is 100% not a good one. OP's posts strongly suggest that she is emotionally dependent on the child. There's no alternative interpretation of her behavior. Can a person be emotionally dependent on a very vulnerable child in a healthy way or in a way that does not endanger the child's well-being? I seem to be the only person here who's been on the receiving end of a obsession like the OP's, and I can tell you that the answer is, "no." Some people here think that it sounds nice for a stranger to come into your life and make you their whole world. It's not. When you're someone's whole world, the thought of losing you, even a little, terrifies them. That's where the abuse comes in - dependence means they need to CONTROL you, by whatever means necessary. The fact that we don't know the OP - don't know how far she will go to keep this kid in her life - is why we need to worry. You have no idea of the kind of fallout that can come of something like this, the kind of damage it can cause, especially for a kid. And for it to happen to someone who is in such a state of mind as the child described? This is serious, and I have valid concerns for the child if the OP is determined to stay in his life forever (as she seems determined to do).

I'd argue that's a trail of being autistic. I for one have very strong relationships with some of my family. My sister moved away for a bit and I feel into a deep depression when i've never experienced depression out side of burnout before. Does that amke me an emotional predator NO. IT just means I can get attached to people. I Don't think that's a problem. Point out that They're behavior cuold have poor effects on the child WILL ONLY MAKE THAT WORSE. and It Doesn't need to be said. I used to think the same way, but IT IS WRONG. Just because you have experienced the OTHER SIDE and see that in other people DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT. If no one else responded to it that way it's probably because of you own biases. Secondly I formed a similiar attachment to one of my special ed teachers and I moved on and was fine. I don't think ti's harmful for someone to be personally invested in their students. just because you've experienced CONTROLLING by this doesn't mean the op or the child does too. The OP says that the child is doing fine I think if they were having problems with this since they have depression they would show it. I think they'd bring that up. SO why don't you have that problem with me I've mentioned it before. Getting fixated on people IS A NORMAL part of autism. and You have many GLARING RED FLAGS i feel obligated to address. I for one REGRET deeply doing this. As often I was wrong and projecting more than not. And even so, If you were trying to seek advice and people accused you of being a predator would you listen to them, no you won't so you not only are out of line but you also are going about it the wrong way. I believe you're intentions are good but it in no way helps the sitaution and is more likely to cause distress to the OP. And that's where you are in the wrong.


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15 Jul 2020, 8:44 pm

Thank you Piepulp. I just want to say that I don't want obsessive control over this kid to the point of hurting him. Aceofpens, you referred to my behavior as that of "The Kindergarten Teacher" movie. I never planned nor will I ever form a plan to follow this kid into the bathroom to stalk him and offer to babysit him but then lie to his mom and take him far far away to places other than where he is supposed to go. I'm not even going to his house. I just want to visit him once a week to play a game with him and console him of his problems. Maybe give him a hug if he needs one. I'll even wear a mask and have my temperature taken if I have to. It's not weird behavior, it's just that I'll do what I have to if it means being allowed to see someone I care about. It's not about kidnapping, it's just about giving a child a REAL mentor. Not someone who will only come 2-3 times a year when it's convenient and yes, his well being is very important to me. You're right, he doesn't like being controlled. I found that out already over the past 2 years working with him that he doesn't want to be told to do his work or anything. But, if you build a relationship with him like I did and show him that you do care about his needs, you understand that when he has a headache or a stomach ache that it is hard for him to keep going, and you're always there when he needs you the most, then he will do what is asked. It's simple, if you show him respect and compassion than you will get the same. You will even have more than your fair share of laughs with this kid which is great because during really stressful days, everyone needs a laugh or two. I'm very sorry that some pervert/predator abused the power of being a caring and trusted adult toward you. That's not who I want to be to this child. :(



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16 Jul 2020, 10:02 am

The last time we didn't deal with a member's obsession with a minor, it escalated into a dangerous situation. I hope it doesn't happen with you, and maybe it won't, but I will have warned you to guard yourself against the consequences of your dependence, which is all that I intended. No predator considers themselves such, so intentions really mean nothing in the end. I just hope that you set a few clear boundaries to limit the damage for everyone involved. Write them down on paper - these things that you're sure you'll never do, and hold yourself to them. Don't talk badly about his family to him. That's the big one. Make sure that he understands that he has other relationships in his life other than the one you are offering him. Never let him question that fact, and never try to make your relationship more "special," e.g. telling him that you understand him more than anyone else or that you will offer him comfort when no one else will. These are the common tactics used by predators. They are used with the best intentions, but they're the first really damaging moves you can make.

"I'll do what I have to if it means being allowed to see someone I care about." I don't know how far you will go to enable your dependence on him, and that worries me. Since you seem unwilling to even entertain the idea that your good intentions could lead to abuse, even though you have already crossed professional boundaries, I do not see it ending well. Those boundaries exist to protect children, and you have already shirked them.

"If you build a relationship with him like I did and show that you care about his needs, you understand...and you're always there when he needs you the most, then he will do what is asked." This is it. This is the point. Don't abuse this - emotional power over a child. My predator didn't want to be what they were either. They had all the best intentions, just like you do. It means nothing if you don't set and honor boundaries.


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I have not the kind affections of a pigeon. - Ralph Waldo Emerson


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

16 Jul 2020, 12:23 pm

Many predators don’t care if others consider them predators. And some glory in the fact that they are predators.

The OP reminds me more of a teacher from Victorian days who had a maternal interest in a boy student.