People are angry at me because I contradict them?

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BTDT
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08 Mar 2011, 8:54 am

Yes, there is an art to conversation.

First, one needs to keep in mind the big picture--what is the conversation really about?

Is there a problem that needs to be fixed? Are you trying to establish or maintain a relationship? Or is there some sort of infomation exchange? It is far too easy for us to lose track of the big picture.

Yes, we place too much emphasis on accuracy. It isn't unusual for folks to contradict themselves--you won't have many friends if you continually point that out.

You don't necessarily have to point out that someone is wrong to make your point, especially if you can put your point inside a story. Typically, the goal is to get people to remember what you said, and to forget about opposing viewpoints.

ToughDiamond
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08 Mar 2011, 9:03 am

syrella wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

Surfman wrote:

A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down.

Throw in some ego bolstering comment when you correct another.

they: the earth is flat

me: wow that new car of yours is awesome, BTW Galileo established that the earth is round and I love what you've done with your hair!

that was hilarious :lol:

Haha. Nice one.

And I called it a clumsy example, when it was good comedy all the time :oops:

ToughDiamond
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08 Mar 2011, 9:11 am

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

My psychologist told me that you can be right or you can be in relationship but rarely both. I think about this a lot now and find myself gritting my teeth more and more because my instinct is to be right but my heart wants the relationship. The right road is a lonely one.

It might be worth the trade-off. Doesn't have to be absolute....I think even the most mainstream NTs appreciate bluntness sometimes, it's more about a sense of occasion. Have you tried Yorkshire?

emlion
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08 Mar 2011, 9:12 am

i think it's more how you contridict someone.
when i do i usually start with 'oh, i see your point but...'

wavefreak58
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08 Mar 2011, 9:18 am

I'm pretty sure there must be some endorphin rush or other addictive brain chemical thingy that people get when they believe they are spot on about something. Contradicting them is a buzz kill. It's not about being right or wrong, it's about the buzz. Maybe autistics get buzzed by actually BEING correct, not just believing it. Of course that raises the question, how does one know that they are actually correct?

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leejosepho
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08 Mar 2011, 9:23 am

Callista wrote:

... At which point the person I was talking to got angry at me because I "always play the devil's advocate" ...

I'm trying to figure out just what I'm doing and how in the world I'm supposed to have a conversation without doing it ...

... most of the people I interact with ... will heavily resist being told they are wrong ...

So then, do not tell them they are wrong. Rather, just talk only about the subject at hand while remembering those people are not the subject at hand ...

... and then let them draw their own conclusions about themselves. There is nothing to be gained by drawing lines either between or around groups of people.

Callista wrote:

I personally don't mind [being told I am wrong] because if I'm wrong about something I want to learn it the right way, and will generally go home and research it if informed of my mistake.

Same here, but I would still prefer the other person only speak of the subject at hand and not about me. If I say something that is wrong and somebody else corrects the fact of that matter, I can then go draw my own conclusion about myself.

Callista wrote:

But apparently this is some kind of social taboo I'm not aware of. I can't even explain it very well, but maybe somebody will know what I'm talking about.

Believe as you will or wish about other people, but then keep those beliefs to yourself and let others decide on their own. Again: There is nothing to be gained by drawing lines either between or around groups of people.

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syrella
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08 Mar 2011, 9:31 am

wavefreak58 wrote:

You're probably right about the first part, but I don't think I do so because I like actually being correct. It's a nice perk, maybe, but it's not my main motivation.

For me it's not the act of being correct that I like, it's the joy I get from showing them that an alternative viewpoint exists and that the world isn't just a simple black or white place. It's more complicated than that... and full of all these other really interesting possibilities.

I guess for me it's that role of being a "teacher" that I enjoy... but I mean that in the least condescending way possible. Teaching is a two-way street and what I really like is the information exchange. I get along well with people who share a love of learning. I have trouble with those who are only interested in their own point of view.

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MotherKnowsBest
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08 Mar 2011, 10:29 am

ToughDiamond wrote:

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

It might be worth the trade-off. Doesn't have to be absolute....I think even the most mainstream NTs appreciate bluntness sometimes, it's more about a sense of occasion. Have you tried Yorkshire?

Haha, yes I went to university in Yorkshire. Yorkshire is a funny place. None of my NT fellow students integrated well with the locals, they said they felt a barrier of hostility and suspicion that they weren't allowed to cross. As for me the Aspie, I got on really well, was made very welcome and seemed to fit right in. I'm not sure if it's because they liked my strangeness or because I was oblivious to theirs.

kfisherx
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08 Mar 2011, 10:46 am

One of the hardest (but perhaps most important) lessons I have to keep learning over and over again is...

"It is not about being right but about getting it right"

wavefreak58
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08 Mar 2011, 10:56 am

kfisherx wrote:

One of the hardest (but perhaps most important) lessons I have to keep learning over and over again is...

"It is not about being right but about getting it right"

Yeah. It's really hard to self edit what I say before I blurt out something that is factually correct but irrelevant to the goal of the conversation. Especially in any kind of technical meeting. I often end up saying little to nothing because I have a difficult time keeping in the right context. Too many times somebody will say something that triggers a chain of thought and I'll take off into some weird thoughts (like on computational aspects of the underlying algorithms) and when I come up for air the conversation has moved on to something else and I'm lost. I just keep my mouth shut and avoid the "You really are an alien, aren't you" looks.

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Mdyar
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08 Mar 2011, 11:12 am

I'll notice inaccuracies in statements and I at one time I would correct this, because I always viewed it as intellectual laziness. It's a metric gauge against the 'predominate culture' I guess and nothing personal.

The details are important ,but you're not going to change the overall pattern doing this. The 'phenomenon' reminds of sharks teeth; you knock one out and there's one already to replace it ad infinitum.

I'm not saying I'm usually right and when corrected I appreciate that someone cared enough about 'the accuracy.'

Last edited by Mdyar on 14 Mar 2011, 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

pgd
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08 Mar 2011, 11:22 am

Callista wrote:

Now that I've gotten this criticism from two different sources, I can't help but think there's got to be something to it.

Namely, I apparently annoy people by being too contradictory, by correcting them, or by arguing too much.

Example conversation:
Them: "So, like, you'll be able to tell if people are stupid if they think that [finding bacterial life of non-earth origin] doesn't matter, because it's just bacteria and not little green men or anything."
Me: "Well, they might only be stupid about astronomy."

At which point the person I was talking to got angry at me because I "always play the devil's advocate". (Note they have gotten angry with me about this before, so it wasn't just this particular conversation that irked them but a record of similar things.)

I'm trying to figure out just what I'm doing and how in the world I'm supposed to have a conversation without doing it. It really doesn't help that most of the people I interact with are pretty nerdy and will heavily resist being told they are wrong about anything, ever. I personally don't mind it because if I'm wrong about something I want to learn it the right way, and will generally go home and research it if informed of my mistake.

But apparently this is some kind of social taboo I'm not aware of. I can't even explain it very well, but maybe somebody will know what I'm talking about.

What's with this? How can I fix it?

----

My guess is that the persons you are talking with use words (assign different meanings to words) than you do. So that means two persons can appear to be on different wavelengths. Frankly, I don't see a simple solution to it at all. A person can choose to try to talk less when around people like that. At the same time, when people get angry, that tends to kill the conversation/kill that conversation thread. Also, many people do things for their own reasons/lack of reasons. That may be an aspect of the (hidden) social taboo you mention.

Last edited by pgd on 08 Mar 2011, 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

wavefreak58
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08 Mar 2011, 11:22 am

Mdyar wrote:

The details are important ,but you're not going to change the overall pattern doing this. The 'phenomenon' reminds of sharks teeth; you knock one out and there's one already to replace it ad infinidum.

It seems like NT's move towards that overall pattern more fluidly and easily. Once a pattern starts to coalesce, it builds momentum and details start having less influence on the direction and form of the big picture. I've noticed this in technical meeting where I am still chewing on some specific details and the group has moved on, a decision implicitly made and on to the next thing. And if I then bring up those details its too late and irrelevant.

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ToughDiamond
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08 Mar 2011, 11:30 am

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

It might be worth the trade-off. Doesn't have to be absolute....I think even the most mainstream NTs appreciate bluntness sometimes, it's more about a sense of occasion. Have you tried Yorkshire?

There's nowt so queer as folk. :wink:

DandelionFireworks
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08 Mar 2011, 3:45 pm

You know people are stupid when they place more importance on having everyone think they're right all the time than on actually being right all the time. Write them off. They're all 100% worthless.

Yes, I know they're 90% of the population. Write them off anyway and you'll have fewer social obligations, too!

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Julian94
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08 Mar 2011, 4:24 pm

I feel bad/uneased when people say something that I know is wrong.

And BTW I hate the expression; it is'nt about being right. Because you can be right without informing people about it.

(I know I'm rambling but its 22:24)

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