New Hypothesis of mine on why girls are diagnosed less

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Mummy_of_Peanut
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05 Sep 2012, 7:35 am

I think the sweet little girl who smiles, but doesn't say much is much less likely to get a diagnosis than the tomboy, who is in your face and full of energy. I think the latter is less common for girls with Aspergers, but it makes it easier for the girl to be identified. My daughter is the latter and was diagnosed early, at 6 1/2 yrs, just 2 weeks ago. Had she been the former, I don't think many people would have noticed her behaviour at all. I might have thought she was just shy, as there would have been little 'bad' behaviour to speak of. In some ways, it's seen as 'good' behaviour and well mannered to only speak in short sentences and only when spoken to, to sit on your own in your room, reading/drawing/playing with dolls, etc. I know a few girls like that and the older generation will say, 'They are such lovely polite girls', when all the while I'm thinking, 'They don't say anything at all, never engage in any sort of conversation, there's more than just shyness going on there'. But, those girls, whether they have an ASD or not, will remain unassessed/undiagnosed (until they have a mental breakdown when the go off to uni or start work). I was just like one of those girls too. Girls like my daughter are so much more obviously different. The only other girl I know for certain has Aspergers is just like her and I could see it before I was told about it. There must be many more, but the active tomboys are the ones more likely to be spotted, I'm sure of it. The difference with boys is the the boy who presents as shy will have everyone worried, as will the active in your face boy. Ironically, my daughter and similar girls are less stereotypically autistic than the 'shy' variety and people, who only know a little about autism, don't understand how she can be so outgoing and get a diagnosis of autism.


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05 Sep 2012, 8:16 am

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I think the sweet little girl who smiles, but doesn't say much is much less likely to get a diagnosis than the tomboy, who is in your face and full of energy.


Actually when I was like a shy little girl, being very little. A lot of people recogniced that something is different and didn't had any trouble believing that I had difficulties.
At this time I had the diagnoses:
- Sensory Processing Disorder
- Dyslexia
- Graphomotoric Difficulties

But later on, me being the tomboy I had huge problems with my difficulties. Because most people believed I'm just rude and so on.
And very later on, me being a boy officially noone thinks really anymore that I have social problems.

So in my case it was exactly the other way around. 8O


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05 Sep 2012, 8:39 am

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
how many straight men sit down with each other and explicitly say "man, the way Bob was talking to me really upset me. he wasn't very sensitive to my needs and should have understood about my relationship with John and not said that." or "I feel really fat when I wear this shirt. is it ok?" guys think about that stuff, but they sure as hell won't tell you about it. if, like most straight guys, you're almost exclusively social with guys and aren't privy to the "feelings" conversations girls have with each other and gay men, you're kind of screwed if you're an aspie.


I am a heterosexual female, but your description of how straight guys behave with respect to expressing their feelings applies more to me than that of females/gay men. I also had the testosterone thing, which was not fun, since I didn't get energy and muscles, just much excess body hair and acne.


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05 Sep 2012, 8:48 am

Hi;

I am a child of the late 60's/70's. The women's movement was fresh, and so was the moon walk. I was obsessed with outer space and wanted to be an astronaut. It freaked my Mom out because we had a school records book and it had a place to choose from the 'girls' professions or the 'boys' professions. Guess where 'astronaut' fit? She was mortified. She always pushed me to be a nurse or mother and she checked those boxes on my behalf. She never would have told anyone I wanted to be anything other than a mother(wife) and a nurse - denial to fit her own reality. We were also lower middle class rural remote people and people were not to aspire to academics. I think it is important to take into account the historical, socio-cultural,l and socio-economic realities. We will all have a different experience on this account, I am sure. If I was from a family that valued, and had the means, for a higher education - if I was born in 1990 in urban North America - would anyone have blinked about my obsession?

Now I didn't think in terms of 'boy'/'girl' - I just new what interested me. Later, when a police officer and his dog visited our school, I wanted to be a police man. If women were recruited then, there weren't many. I didn't think of gender, I said I wanted to be a police man - for the only reason that for me it was a simple denotation of something that caught my interest. I just knew that was the job description and I really pictured myself in uniform and working with a dog. I wasn't caught up in the in-congruency of gender assignation. I didn't care. But, oh, those around me sure did. If, in the event my mom actually questioned a doctor about me (and my brother) to begin with, she would have flatly denied any 'interests' outside of her own little story - she spoke for me. In recent years she said she used to worry my brother and I would 'turn out gay'. Another weird archaic fear. I wonder how many parents have tried to hide what they fear is 'deviant' behavior'? Just a thought.



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05 Sep 2012, 8:49 am

I also read somewhere that girls on the higher end of the spectrum have invisible traits when they are babies and toddlers. I'm living proof of that. I'm a girl on the higher end of the spectrum and I was like a typical baby, right up until the age of 4. My mum knew a lot of other people (friends and relatives) with babies of the same age as me and she said I never stood out from them and I even interacted OK with them, which was why she never expected me to come into difficulty when I started school at the age of 4. Maybe if I had waited until I was 5 to start school, nobody might've suspected AS until my early teens, being so 4 is a little young to be starting a full day at school and so it is harder for a 4-year-old to tell adults that they're in distress and why, Aspie or not.


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05 Sep 2012, 8:55 am

Joe90 wrote:
I also read somewhere that girls on the higher end of the spectrum have invisible traits when they are babies and toddlers.


I haven't read that, would be interested to know where you read it, but I am sure it is as true in adults. I've had a non clinical diagnosis and I am high functioning, and was told that I have an invisible presentation. The persona starts to crumble more under stress though.


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05 Sep 2012, 9:30 am

yellowtamarin wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I'm not talking about the EMB theory at all, that does not describe a literal brain at all. I mean the the brain posses less of the sexual diamorphisms that male brains tend to have. The brain is literally more androgynous.

Oh okay. It's just that you said
Quote:
People with autism DO NOT, and I repeat, DO NOT, have an extreme male brain. Brain scans have shown that males with AS actually have LESS masculine brains than most males, and both genders tended to be more androgynous.

which reads as though you are relating the two ideas to each other.


He was bringing up the extreme male brain theory and relating it to the difference between a male and female brain, some one with AS probably does not have a literal extreme male brain.


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megahertz
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05 Sep 2012, 10:14 am

I think for a girls it is easier to fit into a gender role. A few decades back it was the other way round, but back then, nobody knew about ASD. Today (where I live) it tends to be a bit like that:

- A boy is calm and silent: Oh no, that's not typical for boys, there must be something wrong!
- A boy is loud and bothersome: Oh no, that behaviour must be ill!
- A boy is nice and social: Could he be gay?!
- A boy is interested in science stuff only: Get out and socialize, you'll need soft skills in every job!

- A girl is calm and silent: That's normal for girls, she just needs more self-confidence!
- A girl is loud and bothersome: Look how self-confident and strong the little lady is!
- A girl is nice and social: That's exactly what we expect!
- A girl is interested in science stuff only: Look, what a smart girl!

That means, a little boy needs less "strange" treats to get dragged to a psychiatrist by teachers or parents.
A girls must have/make really bad problems to attract attention.



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05 Sep 2012, 11:28 am

megahertz wrote:
I think for a girls it is easier to fit into a gender role. A few decades back it was the other way round, but back then, nobody knew about ASD. Today (where I live) it tends to be a bit like that:

- A boy is calm and silent: Oh no, that's not typical for boys, there must be something wrong!
- A boy is loud and bothersome: Oh no, that behaviour must be ill!
- A boy is nice and social: Could he be gay?!
- A boy is interested in science stuff only: Get out and socialize, you'll need soft skills in every job!

- A girl is calm and silent: That's normal for girls, she just needs more self-confidence!
- A girl is loud and bothersome: Look how self-confident and strong the little lady is!
- A girl is nice and social: That's exactly what we expect!
- A girl is interested in science stuff only: Look, what a smart girl!

That means, a little boy needs less "strange" treats to get dragged to a psychiatrist by teachers or parents.
A girls must have/make really bad problems to attract attention.


Thinking about it, that is all true. I suppose, as a girl, I have got it easier socially. But boys have it easier with appearance. A boy doesn't have to make much effort to look masculine: wearing a T-shirt and jeans is manly enough, and they don't have to wear make-up to improve their looks. A girl has to make more effort to look feminine. I know where I come from, a lot of girls wear jeans, and a T-shirt is OK too, but you still got to look trendy otherwise people think you're lesbian, or tomboy-ish, or ''chav'', when really that's not always the case. Also I'm no good with make-up, I just about put a bit of lipstick on but otherwise I look rather plain and feel like the only one who doesn't wear make-up because everyone else around me does. I'm no good with eye make-up, I used to practice but I still didn't get good at it, but I know some cliquey women at workplaces can gossip about girls who don't wear make-up. I'm wondering this is why I get laughed at by other girls in public half the time, it's because I don't wear eye make-up. :(


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05 Sep 2012, 11:13 pm

I'm a big believer in testosterone's correlation with left-handedness and neuropsychiatric disorders, as well as females with ASDs often going undiagnosed due to less frequent externalizing behaviors in the classroom.


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06 Sep 2012, 12:02 am

EstherJ wrote:
I don't know what they're talking about. Your idea seems more probable.

I'm female.
I'm not more severe than the average "Aspie."
Higher testosterone levels run in my family.
I wasn't "caught" because I was home schooled and didn't have the opportunity to mess up socially.

A loose theory:
Society expects men to act more assertive and confident. Less able to show emotion. Adaptable.
Girls are expected to be more shy, sensitive, maybe not prone to look people in the eye as much, emotional, and sensitive.

Girls have this more "autism friendly" expectation on them until they reach their teenager years, when they are expected to be assertive and confident. This is when trouble can show up, unless they are labeled as "quiet."

Thus, society is more "friendly" to autism in girls. More friendly = less noticed.




This is likely the case. In the NT world, boys who do not seek to dominate others will be bullied.

It seemed like girls never got picked on, but over the years, learning otherwise from accounts and articles, the abuse was simply less physical.



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06 Sep 2012, 2:17 am

Joe90 wrote:
A boy doesn't have to make much effort to look masculine: wearing a T-shirt and jeans is manly enough, and they don't have to wear make-up to improve their looks. A girl has to make more effort to look feminine.


Yes, in many regions women are expected to wear make-up. But still it is a regional phenomenon. In my town, I see some kind of anti-make-up trend going on since years. The women's make-up is less flashy, "nature colours" are trendy, more and more ladies wear no (visible) make-up at all. Nobody ever asked me why I don't wear make-up, people just accept it. Natural faces are normal here.
:)
By the way, there are countries with more diagnosed people, even talking about an epidemic, and there are countries with very few diagnosed people. I think one reason for it is fashion and expectations.



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06 Sep 2012, 6:23 am

megahertz wrote:
I think for a girls it is easier to fit into a gender role. A few decades back it was the other way round, but back then, nobody knew about ASD. Today (where I live) it tends to be a bit like that:

- A boy is calm and silent: Oh no, that's not typical for boys, there must be something wrong!
- A boy is loud and bothersome: Oh no, that behaviour must be ill!
- A boy is nice and social: Could he be gay?!
- A boy is interested in science stuff only: Get out and socialize, you'll need soft skills in every job!

- A girl is calm and silent: That's normal for girls, she just needs more self-confidence!
- A girl is loud and bothersome: Look how self-confident and strong the little lady is!
- A girl is nice and social: That's exactly what we expect!
- A girl is interested in science stuff only: Look, what a smart girl!

That means, a little boy needs less "strange" treats to get dragged to a psychiatrist by teachers or parents.
A girls must have/make really bad problems to attract attention.


Agreed.


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06 Sep 2012, 8:14 am

Maybe with girls it's more likely that the symptoms will be attributed to something psychological or "moral", like:

-being a drama queen
-being manipulative
-being depressed
-lacking self-esteem
-being "flaky"

etc.

I certainly don't find that AS traits are acceptable among women in my culture at all (East coast US, middle class), but they are usually seen as a moral failing. Good women are organized, outgoing, socially savvy and "together". Women who are not are seen as lacking character, not disabled.



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06 Sep 2012, 8:51 am

I think an important aspect is that people see women as far less intimidating than men. So if a man is suspected to be mentally "ill", some might be subconsciously afraid that he'll go nuts and hurt someone. And so there's a stronger urge to do something about it.



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06 Sep 2012, 9:08 am

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I think the sweet little girl who smiles, but doesn't say much is much less likely to get a diagnosis than the tomboy, who is in your face and full of energy. I think the latter is less common for girls with Aspergers, but it makes it easier for the girl to be identified. My daughter is the latter and was diagnosed early, at 6 1/2 yrs, just 2 weeks ago. Had she been the former, I don't think many people would have noticed her behaviour at all. I might have thought she was just shy, as there would have been little 'bad' behaviour to speak of. In some ways, it's seen as 'good' behaviour and well mannered to only speak in short sentences and only when spoken to, to sit on your own in your room, reading/drawing/playing with dolls, etc. I know a few girls like that and the older generation will say, 'They are such lovely polite girls', when all the while I'm thinking, 'They don't say anything at all, never engage in any sort of conversation, there's more than just shyness going on there'. But, those girls, whether they have an ASD or not, will remain unassessed/undiagnosed (until they have a mental breakdown when the go off to uni or start work). I was just like one of those girls too. Girls like my daughter are so much more obviously different. The only other girl I know for certain has Aspergers is just like her and I could see it before I was told about it. There must be many more, but the active tomboys are the ones more likely to be spotted, I'm sure of it. The difference with boys is the the boy who presents as shy will have everyone worried, as will the active in your face boy. Ironically, my daughter and similar girls are less stereotypically autistic than the 'shy' variety and people, who only know a little about autism, don't understand how she can be so outgoing and get a diagnosis of autism.


^This

I was like that. Which I why I got diagnosed. I was told I was a "bad girl" and "defiant" even "disturbed", no I was an aspie. I was a wild hyper girl, who was weird and bullied a lot for it. I wasn't gonna take it, so I fought back. That is not normal apparently. :roll: But I see girls who are quiet and obviously not great socially and wonder if they are undiagnosed due to it.