If you want to act and think less autistic...

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A fascinating message. In order to survive it is necessary to adapt. but also you care about other people's survival, too, as you wrote that you hoped your contribution could be helpful.

In order to socially adjust to other people a person will have to make some kind of compromise, meaning sacrifice. For instance if you like to play loud music and your neighbor does not like to hear it, you may have to turn the volume down, but if it makes you happy to make your neighbor happy, then you probably have a better chance to thrive than if you refuse to turn the volume down or resent doing so. On another level, it may be necessary to sacrifice certain wrong ideas about the oneself and the workings of the universe, so sacrifice wrong thinking, but some of this thinking may be serving a function to buffer emotional pain, so it is giving up something that is in some way very comforting, like a blanket..

Re the aspie-NT dichotomy, for those who are trying to frame their thinking by making that kind of simplistic black and white distinction, people who are not socially well adjusted are probably not going to be able to fit in the same way that people who are socially adjusted can, but it is a learned skill. I do not believe a child is born not being able to fit in, or better put, all children are born expecting the external world to conform to them, but they learn to get over that as it does not work. Of course you do not want to compromise your personal integrity to be able to fit in---better not to fit in that respect, but a self-centered person is going to have big problems in the world. In order to grow up a person is going to need to sacrifice certain wrong ideas, such as that he is the center of the universe. I know he feels he is, but other people do, too, so who is the real center, the emperor, so to speak, who gets to decide how things go?

To young people, especially those in their twenties, it is normal for lots of people, especially young people, to have social adjustment problems, but there is most probably a psychological factor behind a lot of the problems, whether you are on the autistic spectrum or a so called NT. To deny that there is a psychological factor is, in my opinion, doing yourself and also even humanity in general a big disservice.

Thankfully there is a possibility on this forum to inquire together with other people who may have a slightly different understanding then your own.. Especially on the internet it is like casting a net in the sea. There are many fish there, and if your intent is pure and your mind is alive, then there is hope that something new and interesting will come to you.

The only thing I've observed that is similar to what the OP is talking about is that it seems NTs are far quicker to make exceptions for their friends. If something is "wrong", say, need rolling on healer gear as a mage, it is wrong for me, wrong for the mages in my guild, and wrong for every other mage, too. However, my guildie thinks it is wrong for other guilds but people in our guild can roll need on anything they want and he'll even roll need to help them out. I have trouble wrapping my head around how quickly people can bend the rules for their own in-group, to the point where they don't even see them anymore. I mean, sure, if you said you would shoot my husband or three other random men, those three men would be screwed, but I am aware of my bias there and outside of such an extreme situation I would be reluctant to act on it.

I guess what I mean is that yes, in some ways we are more detached, more inclined to look at things objectively rather than through the way they personally affect us or the people close to us. At the root of it, well, we still have survival (and social/tribal) instincts like anyone else, but I don't think they permeate our thinking to the same degree.

I've spent my life to date, sacrificing my own feelings to try to be more NT and all that this has resulted in is stress, anxiety and depression. I cannot make myself cope like an NT, I cannot make myself understand the same way as an NT, I cannot make my sensory issues go away and I cannot force myself to enjoy the same things they enjoy.

Why would I continue to sacrifice so much of myself any longer? I am less able to function these days than I ever was due to what feels like sacrificing my very soul to an NT world.

Yes,

Yes, good point, but perhaps there is some (perceived) psychological advantage to focusing on oneself beyond the norm, staying on a certain track and isolating to some degree. This is not to discount the genetic aspect of a type of brain function, but some people with a certain kind of brain and/or who are very sensitive may deal with trauma in their own unique way. It may feel safe and good to do that at the time, but ultimately it may not be productive.

I do not see how thinking about how you are different from a certain group of people can help you to adjust or make you happy. Each person is unique. Putting a broad spectrum of people in the catagory of NT seems to me to be like wearing a blindfold. Each moment is alive with possibility. Each person is unique.

This is NOT about you, so please do not read it wrong, but I have found myself having all kinds of excuses for something that goes wrong. It is typical to try to blame it on other people as then I do not have to face it. I do see you and some others making very broad generalizations about very subjective individual problems and then trying to fit it all into the aspie-NT dichotomy. Also, I do not see anyone telling you to fit in or adjust to anything or anyone, but if a person cannot adjust to the degree that not adjusting is causing him suffering, then that is a problem to be solved, and I would suggest starting by looking at oneself. That is what I did (eventually:-) It is not easy, but it yeilds amazing and wonderful results, and it leads to being more comfortable with oneself and being more able to express oneself. After all, we are social creatures.

Also, I must acknowledge I have had a lot of help.

^^^^^

Faking NT caused me a lot of harm over the years, and I was never very good at it to begin with.

Hi everybody,

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to read through all the replies.

The thing is, you cannot change who you are (and you should not want to. You should love and cherish your true self).


But you can boost your true self. Confidence is less mysterious than I thought previously. It is really a matter of how much you are willing to sacrifice for your survival.

Aspies have a tendency to be meek instead of assertive. You need to become more assertive to feel better in this world.

Basically you should be able to be very irritated with your surroundings. This is a sign that you care much about your own life.

All this autistic behaviour of too much smiling and need to please everybody is actually a sign that you don't truly value and respect yourself! Or more rightly stated: perhaps you do care, but you don't show the world that you do. So the effect(which is what really matters) is that you will be treated as if you don't truly value yourself. And in the end you are going to believe yourself that people are right in treating you that way:

If you don't show the world that you value yourself, you are not going to believe it yourself. So if you don't show the world that you value yourself, you actually don't truly value yourself because you don't really believe in it. Hope you see my point.


I think it is essential to be aware of these mechanisms when you have autism of some sort.

Interesting. I think the experience is more immediate when the mind is comprehensive,, whereas the mind which is not comprehensive but more reactive is trying to select what to look at and how to see it, and yes the brain will change with learning. Truly amazing. To some degree it may be helpful to analyze behavior and try to respond in a certain way, but ultimately one needs to drop this kind of analysis. Trying to smile or make eye contact is not the same as naturally doing it. In order to begin to have a more natural experience something may need to be let go of.. I suggest to start by dropping the aspie-NT dichotomy so many seem to be locked into. This does not mean you cannot begin to understand how your own brain function is individual and unique to you, and yes, psychological factors have helped form the way it functions, and by form, I mean condition.

Re what you wrote about loving and cherishing your true self, is a good idea, but generally people are not in touch with their true self and surely do not know how to cherish it, whatever it is. Worthy of discussion, though.

Last edited by littlebee on 18 Mar 2013, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think qawer made a very good point here. He's not talking about learning more appropriate conditioned responses, but engaging with your environment in a more natural manner.
As for the Aspie-Nt dichotomy, I think this is a natural part of a learning process. I don't see it as negative, or separatist but how people are focus on what makes them different. It's one area where people are going to be much less likely to find support for those differences, because in many cases they may not even be comprehended or visible to others. As for valuing yourself, there should always be an expectation that you should be treated with the appropriate respect and consideration that any human being should merit. To accept anything beneath that only validates that you agree with someone's negative opinion.

I agree there is some practical value to seeing ones brain as different from the brain of another, or even many others as part of the learning process, and it is part of a rite of passage,...I myself went through it, and there is some contextual use and value, but probably not so much. I see many people making a pronounced dichotomy and harping on it and clinging to it, so using it as a crutch. If what I say is even true, and a person would have to investigate, then this would open a great big door for learning and a new way to see things....much more flexible....It is bizarre to see so many people leaving out the psychological factors that would also be inherent.

Last edited by littlebee on 18 Mar 2013, 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I have gone through so many cycles of thinking I had finally figured out the secret to social interactions and how to appear "normal", only to fall flat on my face and realize I knew nothing at all.
I hope you'll forgive me if I say you're probably in for a nasty shock.
They have a secret language we will never learn. We have to work around it; we won't ever crack the code. I tried long enough. It can't be done. It isn't something that can be analyzed and learned, it is a sense. You can't analyze your way into having a sense you were born without (nor should we really care, except for the practical issues around it. We don't feel deprived because we lack a dog's sense of smell, after all).

Black and white thinking, added to self esteem issues is a tough combo to crack.




Such as?

I'm curious how you faked NT... Did you have a specific strategy or?

The secret is simple: everything is about survival. That's the whole secret. The problem is that autistics often think it is much more complicated than it is.

But you are very right in that one thing is to understand it, a completely different thing to actually live it.

To actually live it you have to see everything in relation to your own life. That's what autistics don't do enough. Something is important if it is important to your life or to the life of someone you know.

In short: care more about your own life, less about everything else.

I had "personas" that were like social masks that I used in particular social situations. Unfortunately, maintaining them took a lot of energy that I could have and should have used for other things, and was directly sabotaging my ability to function. It's one of the contributors to my repeated burnouts over the years.

The thing about the personas was that they weren't based on understanding, but on imitation.

Surviving is not a way to live a life. I've tried surviving for 10 years and I've just completely come to a halt, I literally cannot go on. Perhaps that's different for you but I've tried everything under the sun, including a hard-arse survival attitude.

I feel happier now than ever before. I'm going on the benefit and taking the time to find out how I can earn money in a way that suits me without the stress of anything. I'm concentrating on the things I'm good at and make me happy so I'm less depressed and much less anxious.

I've tried to boost my self-esteem, gain more confidence etc. but the fact is that certain environments just don't work for me. I will get those things when I am successful in my own way, not by faking it and telling myself and everyone else I'm fine, because I'm not.

I've won competitions largely because of my AS traits. I've never gotten anywhere with my act - I'm a s**t actor. It's taken me a long time to break the taboo of a college career lifestyle. Perhaps challenging the "facts" and "rules" about how you should live will open up some options. We are taught we need to go to school and get a job because that is what most people are comfortable doing. That doesn't mean it's the only way.

It's interesting to think that if you reversed the situation and made an NT friend live your life, they would get just as stressed and depressed. I've had discussions with friends about this and ones that are very successful, in the traditional sense, openly admit that in a zombie apocalypse they would die immediately. Why? Because they have honed their skills to suit the social world. That's the world they know and can operate in. If they are taken out of it they admit they will fail. They too have the same anxiety and stress when they feel their world is not right. So the only real problem is that the social world is the one I can't operate in. My reactions are not abnormal, I just need to be living a lifestyle that suits me.