People misunderstanding what you are saying

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fibonaccispiral777
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08 Oct 2013, 2:05 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

Since you are obviously as wise and virtuous as we are stupid and evil, I'm surprised you deigned to acknowledge our existence.

Could you clarify what you meant by this statement, I'm not quite sure what it means?

It's that bugabear of all aspies: sarcasm.

Oh sorry, I think I might have been confused, did you say that originally or was it leafplant who said it?

fibonaccispiral777
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08 Oct 2013, 2:11 pm

leafplant wrote:

I love that you guys are debating religion and scripture using logic and reason. It genuinely makes me giggle and if this wasn't an Aspie forum I may have just written you off as a pack of unintelligent fools. But I know from personal experience how difficult it is to (not comprehend, for that cannot be done) accept the sheer illogicality and chaos that rules the world of normal people.

Fact: you cannot say stuff such as

Quote:

"The response would be that "God ALWAYS descriminates linguistically".

without provoking the ire of the devout.

Hands up who knows why that is..

Actually religions do have their own warped logic if you observe them closely because even NTs operate by certain rules, only they are not immediately seen as logical only because we tend to disregard the emotional and personal power element of the human contribution.

Another fact: whoever is the recognised holy man of the masses at any given time has the right to make their words the truth even if otherwise those words do not equal truth. If you try to dissect the situation so as to make it yield logical sense, you will end up with a bloody mess. This is how it works. Some mystery has to be allowed for in everything, call it a constant M with the value of Pi. Maybe.

I don't understand. I find your point slightly confusing. In one of your paragraphs you state that even within the irrational world of religion there is a fuzzy kind of logic to be found within it, however in the second paragraph you seem to be suggesting that logic does not work with religion and thus you end up with a 'bloody mess'. Surely if religion has a logic to it, one can use logic in order to analyze certain religious ideas logically? Also, in what post did I suggest I was wise and virtuous? If i thought that i would not have come onto a forum asking for people's opinions on the matter since I would have been so confident in my own intelligence that I would not have required the opinions of others. Such a statement seems odd.

Thelibrarian
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08 Oct 2013, 2:18 pm

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

It's that bugabear of all aspies: sarcasm.

Oh sorry, I think I might have been confused, did you say that originally or was it leafplant who said it?

I said it. If I'm not careful, because of the way posting is set up, it's easy to start my text in the wrong place.

Troy_Guther
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08 Oct 2013, 2:29 pm

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

leafplant wrote:

Quote:

"The response would be that "God ALWAYS descriminates linguistically".

If I may chime in here, I think I have an idea. If you accept the basic premises of a religion, logic can indeed be used. This is the entire basis of theology. Christians over the last 2 millenniums have spent an unbelievable amount of time and energy discussing what their Holy Book actually says, and what it means for our lives. And anyone can cite an assortment of Bible verses to justify nearly any stance imaginable, and still remain logically consistent. I'm actually really impressed with the work that liberal and progressive Christians have done to help square what the Bible says with modern secular values. If you accept that God is real and the Bible is his word and can be trusted, the liberal Christian mindset can be awfully convincing. However. the illogical part, at least for me, is that the two presuppositions in the previous sentences are totally unjustified, given the evidence we have to support those claims.

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08 Oct 2013, 2:37 pm

Troy_Guther wrote:

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

leafplant wrote:

Quote:

"The response would be that "God ALWAYS descriminates linguistically".

Troy, spot on. Again, the classic syllogism:

All Texans are ten feet tall.
Suzie is a Texan.
Therefore, Suzie is ten feet tall.

Though this is an unimpeachable Aristotelian syllogism, it is false as its major premise, or presumption that Texans are ten feet tall, is wrong. By the same token, if we assume the basic truths of Christianity, or any other religion, are correct, then we can make very intelligent and logical arguments. If we assume atheism to be true, then the arguments don't make any sense.

I think being intelligent in part lies with understanding the importance of presumptions, which Leafplant obviously lacks the sophistication to understand.

Troy_Guther
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08 Oct 2013, 6:17 pm

Now now, no need for personal attacks. Nobody ever truly changed their minds from being called stupid over and over.

Thelibrarian
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08 Oct 2013, 6:35 pm

Troy_Guther wrote:

Now now, no need for personal attacks. Nobody ever truly changed their minds from being called stupid over and over.

You might feel a little differently if you take the time to read the entire thread.

naturalplastic
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08 Oct 2013, 7:12 pm

Troy_Guther
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08 Oct 2013, 7:26 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Now now, no need for personal attacks. Nobody ever truly changed their minds from being called stupid over and over.

You might feel a little differently if you take the time to read the entire thread.

Having read the whole thread so far, I'm not sure what exactly the problem is. I actually largely agree with Leafplant in that NT society, and religion in particular do seem to be highly illogical and often seemingly insane. Religions are, after all, comprised of the people who follow them. Sure, he could be less of a pretentious a**hole about it, but I think his point still stands. Personally, the only real egregious sin I've seen so far in this thread is the non-usage of paragraphs in the first post.

On another note, I do agree with you on the name-calling thing. Nothing shuts down a conversation faster, and calling someone a racist is, in my opinion, one of the laziest and most irritating ways to do it. Not to mention that it doesn't even make sense in this situation. Last I checked, Muslims aren't a race but a religion, so if anything, he'd be a bigot. Not that the OP's comments were totally unjustified to begin with; Several high up leaders in the Muslim community, both religious and political, have announced their desire for worldwide Sharia Law a number of times. And that's before even mentioning the terrorists...

Thelibrarian
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08 Oct 2013, 7:45 pm

Troy_Guther wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Now now, no need for personal attacks. Nobody ever truly changed their minds from being called stupid over and over.

You might feel a little differently if you take the time to read the entire thread.

Having read the whole thread so far, I'm not sure what exactly the problem is. I actually largely agree with Leafplant in that NT society, and religion in particular do seem to be highly illogical and often seemingly insane. Religions are, after all, comprised of the people who follow them. Sure, he could be less of a pretentious as*hole about it, but I think his point still stands. Personally, the only real egregious sin I've seen so far in this thread is the non-usage of paragraphs in the first post.

On another note, I do agree with you on the name-calling thing. Nothing shuts down a conversation faster, and calling someone a racist is, in my opinion, one of the laziest and most irritating ways to do it. Not to mention that it doesn't even make sense in this situation. Last I checked, Muslims aren't a race but a religion, so if anything, he'd be a bigot. Not that the OP's comments were totally unjustified to begin with; Several high up leaders in the Muslim community, both religious and political, have announced their desire for worldwide Sharia Law a number of times. And that's before even mentioning the terrorists...

First off, if we look at atheistic communism and fascism, these movements killed 120 million innocent people between them--and this doesn't count war deaths. That is what I call insane, and atheism is directly to blame.

Having said that, it is a free country, and this fellow's imperious tone is what irritated me.

As far as Muslims go, they have been warlike since their inception, as opposed to Judaism, Christianity, and Buddhism, which are essentially peaceful religions.

Troy_Guther
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08 Oct 2013, 7:59 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Now now, no need for personal attacks. Nobody ever truly changed their minds from being called stupid over and over.

You might feel a little differently if you take the time to read the entire thread.

Having read the whole thread so far, I'm not sure what exactly the problem is. I actually largely agree with Leafplant in that NT society, and religion in particular do seem to be highly illogical and often seemingly insane. Religions are, after all, comprised of the people who follow them. Sure, he could be less of a pretentious as*hole about it, but I think his point still stands. Personally, the only real egregious sin I've seen so far in this thread is the non-usage of paragraphs in the first post.

On another note, I do agree with you on the name-calling thing. Nothing shuts down a conversation faster, and calling someone a racist is, in my opinion, one of the laziest and most irritating ways to do it. Not to mention that it doesn't even make sense in this situation. Last I checked, Muslims aren't a race but a religion, so if anything, he'd be a bigot. Not that the OP's comments were totally unjustified to begin with; Several high up leaders in the Muslim community, both religious and political, have announced their desire for worldwide Sharia Law a number of times. And that's before even mentioning the terrorists...

Ok, now I'm really confused. Before I even address your "atheism killed 120 million people" point, I have to ask. What exactly do you believe?

Thelibrarian
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08 Oct 2013, 8:05 pm

Troy_Guther wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Now now, no need for personal attacks. Nobody ever truly changed their minds from being called stupid over and over.

You might feel a little differently if you take the time to read the entire thread.

Having read the whole thread so far, I'm not sure what exactly the problem is. I actually largely agree with Leafplant in that NT society, and religion in particular do seem to be highly illogical and often seemingly insane. Religions are, after all, comprised of the people who follow them. Sure, he could be less of a pretentious as*hole about it, but I think his point still stands. Personally, the only real egregious sin I've seen so far in this thread is the non-usage of paragraphs in the first post.

On another note, I do agree with you on the name-calling thing. Nothing shuts down a conversation faster, and calling someone a racist is, in my opinion, one of the laziest and most irritating ways to do it. Not to mention that it doesn't even make sense in this situation. Last I checked, Muslims aren't a race but a religion, so if anything, he'd be a bigot. Not that the OP's comments were totally unjustified to begin with; Several high up leaders in the Muslim community, both religious and political, have announced their desire for worldwide Sharia Law a number of times. And that's before even mentioning the terrorists...

Ok, now I'm really confused. Before I even address your "atheism killed 120 million people" point, I have to ask. What exactly do you believe?

I'm not sure why you're confused about my claim. Would you like some proof as far as the numbers?

As far as God goes, I can't say I believe or disbelieve other than to say that Christianity has been far more of a positive than a negative.

Troy_Guther
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08 Oct 2013, 8:20 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Thelibrarian wrote:

Troy_Guther wrote:

Now now, no need for personal attacks. Nobody ever truly changed their minds from being called stupid over and over.

You might feel a little differently if you take the time to read the entire thread.

Having read the whole thread so far, I'm not sure what exactly the problem is. I actually largely agree with Leafplant in that NT society, and religion in particular do seem to be highly illogical and often seemingly insane. Religions are, after all, comprised of the people who follow them. Sure, he could be less of a pretentious as*hole about it, but I think his point still stands. Personally, the only real egregious sin I've seen so far in this thread is the non-usage of paragraphs in the first post.

On another note, I do agree with you on the name-calling thing. Nothing shuts down a conversation faster, and calling someone a racist is, in my opinion, one of the laziest and most irritating ways to do it. Not to mention that it doesn't even make sense in this situation. Last I checked, Muslims aren't a race but a religion, so if anything, he'd be a bigot. Not that the OP's comments were totally unjustified to begin with; Several high up leaders in the Muslim community, both religious and political, have announced their desire for worldwide Sharia Law a number of times. And that's before even mentioning the terrorists...

Ok, now I'm really confused. Before I even address your "atheism killed 120 million people" point, I have to ask. What exactly do you believe?

The numbers themselves are fine; 120 million people did die after all. I just don't see how one can blame their deaths on atheism. All atheism necessarily entails is the lack of belief in a God or gods, and nothing else. However, the unquenchable thirst for power and disregard of human life displayed by the dictators of the 20th century provide a more than adequate explanation for the events that transpired. And those traits would be present in those men, regardless of whatever religion, or lack thereof, that they prescribed to.

Thelibrarian
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08 Oct 2013, 8:27 pm

"The numbers themselves are fine; 120 million people did die after all. I just don't see how one can blame their deaths on atheism. All atheism necessarily entails is the lack of belief in a God or gods, and nothing else. However, the unquenchable thirst for power and disregard of human life displayed by the dictators of the 20th century provide a more than adequate explanation for the events that transpired. And those traits would be present in those men, regardless of whatever religion, or lack thereof, that they prescribed to."

When liberals would chide the communists in particular over their worst atrocities, the communists would scornfully dismiss "bourgeois sentimentality", which was their term from Christian morals. And if they were able to dismiss Christianity, who is to say that killing is wrong? In other words, what religion does is to set immutable moral standards even if they aren't kept. Being able to decide what is moral for ourselves is no different than being able to decide what is legal for ourselves. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there is no more absolute power than being able to decide what is legal and moral.

I suppose I could say that although I'm a big skeptical, I'm very comfortable classifying God as a useful fiction.

Troy_Guther
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08 Oct 2013, 8:41 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:

I think that humans are perfectly capable of creating prohibition against murder without the need of Christianity or any other religion. After all, if God really doesn't exist, then all those religious prohibitions against murder, stealing, and lying were actually created by these men themselves, all on their own. That proves we're capable of doing it for ourselves. Sure, religion and God may make the process more effective for many, but we certainly don't need it.

If you're interested in a possible atheistic morality, I would recommend the following lecture by Sam Harris at the TED convention. I found it an incredibly intriguing piece that helps set the table for a moral system that is not reliant on an imaginary higher law.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww[/youtube]

fibonaccispiral777
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09 Oct 2013, 6:57 am

naturalplastic wrote:

Now that youve all had fun blathering on about irrelevent tangents lets get back to addressing the OP's issues about his performance in class.

I think that you (the OP) asked a fair question of the muslim girl, but it came out of your mouth in a klutzy way. So it sounded like you were accusing muslims of 'trying to take over the world"(which wasnt what you meant) which understandably offended the young lady who then called you a racist because it was missunderstanding.

If you had stated the same question a better way there would have been no problem.

What you should have said was something like "presumably the goal of Islam is to give everyone access to God. But doesnt this Arabic language prerequisite cause a problem with access then? Doesnt that unfairly shut out non Arabic speakers from God?"

Thank you for replying, I am glad you think at least the question was worth asking even though it wasn't presented in the most eloquent way. I actually said 'if Mohammed and his followers wanted everybody to follow Islam', however some guy then said out of the blue 'like rule the world and everyone latched onto what he said rather than my original statement, which I would say wasn't me saying they were trying to attain global domination but i suppose some may differ in their interpretation. But thank you for saying it was a worthwhile question because I was looked at as if I was crazy in that seminar. You are correct though i need to be more eloquent. I just find it really difficult to express myself in a clear way especially in front of a lot of people. I have a clear notion in my head that I want to express but when it comes out it is like the language distorts it and no-one knows really what I mean.

It would be interesting to hear what she, and or the professor wouldve said then- had the discussion proceded smoothly.

But my point is that what you were REALLY trying to say was not 'racist', nor disrectful.

So dont worry about it.

But do -learn to think before speaking in public about how you state things from now on.

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