non-verbal learning disability vs aspergers

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^^^
am guessing belatedly that type of thing played a role in why I was so wiped out by my [un]civil service job. all that mental workaround processing.

im not a genius in school i have an average grade of 75-80 but i strugge with reading fiction, writing , math, and french.

science, tech, visual arts,psychology, and certain english classes, ones that have been accommodated, i do pretty well in. i can grasp the concepts and learn but doing worksheets are what bring my mark down significantly, i blame my ADHD most of the time though.

I am mad on the topic of NVLD. I suppose that in USA I would be diagnosed with just NVLD. Many thing from ASD do not fit me. I suppose that I may not be on one spectrum with childhood autism despite being diagnosed with a pervasive developmental disorder. I had serious problems with mathematics and physics in secondary school (Polish: szkoła średnia). I had unsatisfactory grades from them after first semester of second year of secondary school. But less than 1,5 year after it, I wrote my "matura" exam from Maths perfectly at elementary level (100%), and I also had above 90% from Maths in advanced level. I had revalidational hours from these two subjects ealier, after diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. I am rather a verbal than visual thinker. My visual thinking is not so well developed.

It fits to NVLD, but not so well to ASD, so I may think that I am in fact NOT autistic and does NOT have a pervasive developmental disorder. I have heavy obsession about it. The topic "NVLD vs AS" is my "manic" interest... I wonder if I have PDD or not... I think that in Northern America people who are similar to me are diagnosed with just "learning disorder". I am strongly dyssemic (due to my poor nonverbal communication I may look as a "ret*d" for some people). I am not so interesting in having friends (but I want to have female parter since my childood, few weeks ago psychiatrist said that I am not able to be married) and in "normal" life. I tend to wear the same clothes most time and don't bother with clothes so much.

I think that I am not able to do jobs which are adequate for my educational level (I finished first stage of the studies, got the title which is literally translated as "engineer" (paradoxically, my strictly technical skills are really poor ). I learn how to ride a bicycle before my 6th birtday, had quite good handwriting as a child. I can read maps, clocks, graphs. It was rather easy for me. I like vivid colors and was higly interested in video and computer games. I think that I should have certificate of disability (Polish: zaświadczenie o niepełnosprawności). I have not dyscalculia, despite my problems with Maths in secondary school. Scholastic abilities were my remarkable strength. It does not fit so well to NLD. But I have rather good rote and verbatim memory (although auditory attention may be not so good) and my visual memory is not excellent. It is not detailed.

I give some medications for my mental health problems and few weeks ago I was diagnosed with schizotypal disorder which co-occurs with AS.

I think that maybe even most "NLDers" should be re-diagnoses as having PDD. Learning disorder is too "wimpy" term to describe something whch is so devestating for social and emotional area since childhood and makes someone "odd" since early ages. Labelling people such as I as "just learning disordered" is unjust and wrong for me.

I think that "NVLD" is not on the autistic spectrum. But it is another branch of "pervasive developmental disabilities" (like autistic spectrum), not (just) a "learning problem"! Learning disorders have to be marked scholastic issues. Someone may be very good student and have obsessive interests and marked social ineptitude since childhood even if his developmental condition is not associated with childhood autism. Pulling ASD-like developmental disorders into the category of "noverbal learning disorder" is stupid for me. I suppose that my born sister (here is the topic about her: http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=271756) may have "lite" version of my developmental conditon. I think that "NLD syndrome" has to be classified in the same category as autism spectrum disorder in ICD and DSM (this category may be named as "pervasive developmental disorder").

"NLD syndrome" is NOT a specific developmental disorder for me. Sensory anomalies, emotional immaturity, fixative interests, stereotyped beaviors, unusual thinking, one-sided conversations, "loner" personality (which may be named as signs of "NLDs" and are shared symptoms wth disorders which are related to childhood autism) are traits of PDD/autisticity, not specific develepmental disorders.

There are many children with NLD who present primarily with social skills problems and difficulties with interpersonal interactions.

These may manifest as:
- problems making or keeping friends;
- inappropriate social behaviours (e.g., "weird" behaviour in the classroom, unsuitable conversation, etc.);
- lack of understanding of personal space, boundary and privacy issues; difficulty maintaining social conversation (e.g., use of adult jargon with other children, inability to take turns in conversation, etc.);
- "loner" personality;
- fixation on certain topics or interests out of the normal range for their age group, and so on.

Unless their behaviours are disruptive in the classroom, they are more commonly referred by concerned parents than by their teachers.

These children are frequently being diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, particularly if they are not showing any obvious history of early language difficulties.

It is felt to be very important to examine these children's cognitive profiles very carefully in order to distinguish S-NLD children from those who are more autistic-like, and/or from those whose social problems stem from environmental factors, such as inappropriate or inconsistent parenting, chaotic family background, deprivation, or other related social or behavioural factors.

http://www.access.resources.ldao.ca/main/documents/NLD%20Handbook%204th%20Edition.pdf

I would consider myself as having an example of "Mamen's syndrome" ((nick)name from Maggie Mamen, Ph. D., autor of the book "Nonverbal learning disabilites and their clinical subtypes: Assessment, Diagnosis and Management A Handbook for Parents and Professionals") described above. I do not think that I am "more autistic-like". For me it appears to not belong to the autistic spectrum. It describes me really good: problems making or keeping friends, inadquate behaviors and social communication problems, loner personality, fixative interests....

But MANY things from ASD does not fit me, such as: lack of theory of mind and empathy, rigid routines, really weak central coherence, severe problems with sensory integration, visual thinking dominance...

I would classify "Mamen's syndrome" as a pervasive developmental disorder in which socio-emotional issues are most important (such as limited reciprocity, social communication impairments, emotional immaturity, intense, fixative interests), not as a specific developmental disorder or learning disability. "Mamen's syndrome" probably has verbal skills (such as rote and verbatim memory, grammar and syntax skills, finding similarities between words) more developed than nonverbal (such as visual-spatial abilities (like spatial orientation, visual memory and thinking) and motor skills). Some sensory hypersensitivity and (or) hyposensitivity also is possible. For me it is a sort of "aspergerism", but probably not etiologically related to Kanner's autism. Features of "Mamen's syndrome" appear to be similar to the features described in "Dyssemia Rating Scale" (http://www.nesc.k12.mn.us/files/Dyssemia%20Rating%20Scale.pdf). The name "social NVLD" is even less fitting that original Asperger's name for AS - "autistic psychopathy". It was classified as a PDD, not as a psychopathy. So "Mamen's syndrome" also should be classified as a "pervasive developmental disorder", not just as a learning disorder.

Another text about AS and "NLD":

http://www.nlda.org/nlda/similarities-between-aspergers-syndrome-and-nld/

Nonverbal Learning Disability or NLD is slightly different than AS and people who are diagnosed with it show difficulty in using academic and other life skills. That is because they have deficiencies in some areas like visual organization, motor coordination, interpreting information and similar. These weaknesses lead to social difficulties because they can’t communicate properly and also areas like mathematics and handwriting are very limited to patients that have NLD. However they have great verbal memory, strong vocabulary and usually individuals with NLD have higher scores in the verbal parts of an IQ tests in comparison to the tests in nonverbal sections.

I was not poor in handwriting, visual organisaton and handwriting. My coordination was also not so dramatically bad (I learned ow to ride a bicycle before my 6th birthday). I was also rather good in interepreting information and scholastic skills were my large advantage. But I had serious problem in social area and have "other" emotonality. Many symptoms of ASD do not fit me. I have significantly easier in life because of it than many individuals on the autistic spectrum.

I suppose that there can be developmental disorders which have symptoms such as:

- problems making or keeping friends;
- inappropriate social behaviours (e.g., "weird" behaviour in the classroom, unsuitable conversation, etc.);
- lack of understanding of personal space, boundary and privacy issues; difficulty maintaining social conversation (e.g., use of adult jargon with other children, inability to take turns in conversation, etc.);
- "loner" personality;
- fixation on certain topics or interests out of the normal range for their age group, and so on

These symptoms fit also to ASDs. Autistic spectrum disorders and other developmental disorders which present such combination of traits have to be classified in one category of neurodevelopmental disorders, which has to be distinct from "specific developmental disorders" (speech and language problems, learning disorders, motor issues). "Loner" personality and fixation on certain topics or interests out of the normal range for their age group are too Aspergian traits to be present in something which is named just as a "learning disability" for me.

They can be 2 sides of the same coin. Aspergers is defined as a combination of social difficulty and repetitive behaviors or strong narrow interests. NLD is defined as being learning disabled in non-verbal areas such as math, non-verbal communication skills, and motor skills. However, a person with aspergers usually has symptoms not included in the diagnostic criteria, such as : awkward gait, poor motor skills, clumsiness, higher verbal IQ than performance IQ (similar to NLD) , and sometimes learning disabilities. NLD is the side of the coin that includes the latter traits (higher verbal IQ than performance IQ, learning disability,etc)- while Asperger's is the side of the same coin that is diagnosed when the former symptoms ( social skill problems, stimming, repetitive behavior) are more pronounced. Just like not everyone with NLD is as impaired socially as a person with Aspergers, not everyone with Asperger's has a learning disability. My verbal IQ is higher than my performance (non-verbal) IQ , but my nonverbal IQ is still high and I don't have a learning disability. Math was my best subject in school - unlike most people with NLD.

I did get extended test time however, but Im not sure if that is NLD related- because it is due to a reading disorder. I don't need the extended time at all for math.


Usually NLD won't be diagnosed if AS is present. ASD supersedes the NLD when it comes to diagnosing- so I can't really say if its just those with NLD+AS who are learning disabled. But any learning disability that occurs as a direct result of AS will probably be NLD related.

I think that many "NLDers" are misdiagnosed as people who just have learning disability. Social and nonverbal communication issues are not necessary present with vidsual-spatial-motor deficits. I think that serious dyssemic symptoms (such as really poor eye contact) combined with "loner" personality and (or) fixated interest are symptoms of different sorts of autism. I have diagnosis of a pervasive developmental disorder, not a learning disorder and I think that it could be helpful in life. I would call my developmental disorder an another sort of autism and "aspergerism", not (just) a form of nonverbal learning disorder and "autism" can give also some benefits and strengths, such as diminished need of having friends, being loved by other people, nonconformism, lack of shame in many situations which are embarassing to "normal" people... I think that people who are strongly similar to me also should be classified as autistics and Aspies - also for their benefit.

I had NLD-related(?) problems with mathematics and physics in my secondary school. So I think that I have a bit of NLD also. Finding similarities between words, remembering words (my auditory memory may be not so good, maybe I have some sort of attention deficit), being good in spelling, lack of speech delay are positive traits associated with "NLD" (I named it "hyperlogism" (verbal skills are more developed than visual-spatial-motor in it), not "nonverbal learning disorder"). I suppose that my verbal thinking skills are more developed than visual-spatial ones. I have not strictly technical abilities. I am poor in repairing.

Article by Dr. David Dinklage Director of Neuropsychology at Cambridge Hospital
https://www.aane.org/asperger_resources/articles/miscellaneous/asperger_nonverbal_learning.html

Social-emotional issues described in this article (I do not like this article because it "degrades" severe socio-emotional problems to the level of a "learning disorder") are definitely enough to make an Aspie from someone and people with such a "NVLD" are Aspies for me and their diagnosis for me has to be in one category with childhood autism and not in one category of developmental disabilities with dyslexia, beause such a "NVLD" is socio-emotional disability, not scholastic problem.

[url]Social/emotional issues:

Peer relations are typically the greatest area of impairment; may play with much older or younger children than with same age peers where they must manage give and take.
They often lack basic social skills; may stand too close, stare inappropriately or not make eye contact, have marked lack of concern over appearance, be oblivious to other’s reactions, change topics idiosyncratically.
Children with NVLD are seen as “odd” children who “just don’t get it” socially They may do better with adults, where they act dependent and immature, but may not be seen as “odd.”
They may show poorly modulated affect, not matched to verbal content.
Lack of empathy and social judgment may shield them from fully experiencing the hurt of peer rejection, while the same factors increase the likelihood of being rejected.
History of unusual thinking can often be obtained: rituals, stereotypic behaviors, rigid routines, and magical/bizarre beliefs.
[/url]

Unusual thinking associated with "NVLD" has to be not a symptom of NVLD itself!! !

Such a "NVLD" is more similar to "social communication disorder" from DSM-V than to dyscalculia or reading disorder. So "NVLD" looks rather like a communiation impairment, not like a learning disability. But communication impairment is also part of ASD. If child with "NVLD" has emotional and behavioral qualities like "fixativeness", stimming, one-sided conversation, emotional immaturity (especially if is intelligent), then for me is clearly an Aspie, not just an individual with communication disorder.

A comment from http://www.healthboards.com/boards/general-health/707531-physical-tempermental-differences.html:

I've read a lot about Asperger, ADD, and the like. I seem to resemble a combination of Asperger and ADD-I (inattentive) myself.

As for being able to tell Asperger and the Bipolar spectrum apart, this shouldn't be too difficult, except for the fact that Bipolar is a common comorbid condition for Asperger. In other words, they go together, just like the ADD/Asperger combo.

You don't need to stim or toe-walk to have Asperger/HFA. AFAIK, the diagnosis requires the following 3 criteria to be fulfilled to some degree: repetitive behavior, liking for sameness or specific routines; difficulty with social interaction; idiosyncratic language (pedantic or monotonous speech, etc.)

There is also NVLD (non-verbal learning disorder) which shares a *great* deal of similarity with Asperger, but it's not in the DSM and not diagnosable by a psychologist per se; NVLD is treated as a learning disability, while AS is seen more as a developmental disorder. Some experts think you can have NVLD without AS, but some counter that NVLD is an unnecessary splitting of the group. One figure speculates around 50% of people with Asperger fit NVLD criteria.

Myself? I think NVLD should be abolished. If you have NVLD, just call it Asperger... my two cents, anyhow.

I agree with the opinion that NVLD should be abolished. For me so-called NVLD is a sort of aspieness, not a learning disability and people with so-called NVLD have to be classified in the same category with people who have high-functioning autism, but not in the same category with ones who have dyslexia. The term NVLD is confusing and it may be used to describe social ineptitude lasting since childhood, nonverbal communication impairment (also with behavioral peculiarities). Nonverbal communication impairment is an Aspie trait. It is irritating that some group of Aspies are classified as having just a learning disorder.

The term NVLD should be not used in psychiatry and psychology because it is harmful and was associated with general, developmental socio-emotional difference (a sort of aspieness), not with learning disorder. "True NVLD" has not to be associated with nonverbal communication impairment, social ineptitude and peculiar behaviors or thinking!

"True NVLD" is (something like) "visual-spatial-motor disorder". It is associated with serious problems with reading non-verbal informations (like graphs, maps and clocks), dyscalculia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia. But it does not "sentence" an individual to be dyssemic or have social communication disorder. "True NVLD" also does not mean that individual should or will present fixative interests, rigid routines or OCD, stims, problems with dealing with sensory experiences.

Social drive remains intact in proper NVLD, while Aspies can (but do not have to) have it significanly diminished and they can have lack of need of being loved by other person, tendency to one-sided interactions which are irritating for others due to deficit of social reciprocity. Some Aspies can be uninterested in gaing social skills and "socialisation".

I struggled academically at school, not due to the teaching style, but because I had difficulties paying attention, remembering, and taking things in. When I was about 5 I could not pay attention at all. Instead I saw everything as a toy and just messed about, instead of trying to take in basic skills you learn when you are that age.

I struggled at maths all through school, no matter how I got taught. When I was 14 I had to be taught extra to catch up with this really difficult maths I just couldn't grasp, and it still didn't work. So I just failed that when it came to my exams.

I don't mind maths though. In fact I find it quite cosy, just playing about with numbers. Although I found it extremely hard. My mind just isn't built for numbers.

^^^mee too about all of that.