Different way of thinking causes people to avoid us

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^^ frustrating, isnt it? First they teach you fibs, then they want you to pay for it!

Where I worked last, if you were competent and productive you were effectively doomed to the trenches for life. The problem was, once you got above the trenches nothing was real - it was all BS and shiny objects, and that got significantly worse over time. I stayed in the trenches.

I suspect that the BS and shiny objects were the actual point. If that's so, to avoid that kind of system you might have to work for yourself or be the company founder, and even then you'd better make sure it's a small company.

I've always disliked hypercompetitive environments (and people). Never saw this aspect to it. Thank you. Darn it.

Not just your perception; there are numerous studies showing you're right -- and not just when it comes to success. One of the odd things about depression, some researchers believe, is that the depressed often see the world more accurately than the emotionally healthy. People who succeed and people who are emotionally healthy regularly delude themselves (and others) to the odds they're actually facing, as well as to the results of some of their actions, in order to keep pursuing goals and whatnot. This can be healthy partly because pursuing a goal is a healthy activity, assuming it's a good goal to pursue, and the fact that they'll never achieve it isn't really pertinent to the journey, if you will.

Also, the way social hierarchies work means people benefit from deluding themselves about one's own qualities, as well as the abilities of those both above and below. For those more interested in maintaining the present hierarchical social structures, there are a lot of good reasons to choose, not the person who is best at something, but rather the person who believes they are best at it and can convince others of this fact through charm or an act of will. Not that I can remember those reasons at the moment, because they didn't really make sense to me, but when I read about them, I recognized that, if these are your goals in life, then these falsehoods kind of make sense.

The only reason nearly everyone doesn't get slapped with a delusional disorder label is that most psychologists and the like seem to be less interested in reality and more interested in seeing people function within society. Personally I prefer Jordan B. Peterson's approach:



But if I could easily get what I wanted by embracing my society's set of delusions, who knows what I'd think?

I'm with you and Jordan Peterson on this one. Wouldn't you think that psychologists, etc., would be just a teensy bit concerned about whether or not a society is inimical, if not frankly toxic, before encouraging people to conform to it? I guess, though, that requires an outsider's perspective to begin with.

And that is the entire problem.

Sadly, I believe your Pratchett quote is spot on. People are fundamentally lazy and selfish, and it takes serious effort to be anything else. I prefer truth, and seek truth, because that's how I'm made, but people could theoretically be just as abusive with truth as they are with the current system of shared fantasies. Abusers can always find a way to abuse.

But, yes, is psychologists, etc. truly cared about people, they would, indeed, question the system far more than they do. But that, of course, is one reason Peterson's not terribly popular in such circles -- he questions things, and he's not satisfied with the easy answers! Power seekers do not go that route, and most people seek power for one reason or another.

Well, I seek power, or at least the power to be left alone. But I also believe that the power that corrupts is power over other people, which few really agree with. I suspect Peterson is one of the rare ones who sees taking power over other people, when it comes to anything they can take care of themselves, as an evil act. Obviously, as a parent myself, I do recognize that there are times when taking power over others is a necessity -- snatching a kid out of the street before they get run over is perceived as a definite infringement on their rights, and they will likely let you know it! But even parents should have as their primary goal empowering their kids, not molding them to the parents' preference.

Maybe I see parenting that way because I'm missing some social circuit or something, though. Plenty of parents who want their kids to "make me proud" by achieving this or that have great relationships with their kids because the kid easily embraces the parents' goals. But I digress. I still think it can be argued that there are really very few relationships in our lives when we should try to control others. Persuade, certainly. But trick, coerce, manipulate, bully, demand... no.

This is what good managers actually do--they hire other people to do the "real" work. Surprisingly few people can do this well.

One of the better managers that we have had didn't care how much time you spent goofing off as long as you got your work done on time.

In practice, if "goofing off" results in exceptionally innovative work, for a net gain in productivity, why not take that approach?

The phrase "don't kill the goose that makes the golden eggs" comes to mind.

^^ I'm going to disagree with you on some specifics. I am sorry if this causes offense. None is meant. But I'm too old and have seen too much to let this pass without comment, because it seems to endorse certain attitudes and behaviors that are counterproductive in practice.

Good managers delegate, but manage.

They will make very sure that any golden goof-off goose is actually doing his or her own work. If they're not, if they are taking advantage of their colleagues or stealing work and credit, they're gone. If they're bullying and harassing their peers or inferiors in status, they're gone. No matter who they're chummy with - if they're destructive, they're gone.

And even if a golden goof-off goose IS doing his or her own work, if he or she is rubbing their colleagues' noses in the fact that they watch golf videos all day while everyone else does the heavy lifting, they're STILL gone, because they're poisoning morale, and the damage from that isn't worth it.

Before I got out and headed for the trenches many years ago, I was a department head, and a good one. I know what I'm talking about.

I got out of management because I refused to do gratuitous harm to my direct reports, and because I refused to tolerate abuse of my direct reports by anyone. I was savvy enough to make very sure there was well documented abuse taking place before I took action, but even so, upper management didn't like it. Never mind that my department was turning in one stellar performance after another, and we had a waiting list of people who wanted to work there - it wasn't about doing the job. It was *never* about doing the job.

I did what I could to help former staffers find other jobs, after I left, if they contacted me. And I focused on my new employment. Within three years of my departure, the company I had worked for was bought out and pillaged. I was lucky to get out when I did.

This was a long time ago. I'm not at all sorry that I was a manager then, and I am not at all sorry that I stopped when I did. I was very young, it was one hell of an education, and I'd never do it again for any amount of money.

In all the years I worked delivering pizza, as well as all my full time jobs in I.T., I only ever had one manager that I worked for that actually knew how to handle people. Many are the times I told the dirty old man (we called him that affectionately) I can teach anyone how to run a computer. Likewise, you can teach someone how to manage an operation, but to manage people, you have to be a leader. I’m sorry, but you can’t teach leadership, despite what the MBA programs tell you. You’re either a leader, or your not: it’s something that has to come naturally.

The biggest issue I have with modern managers is the management training programs teach them to minimize, if not eliminate, expenses AT ALL COSTS, INCLUDING LABOR. Labor nowadays is considered to be nothing more than a rotting side of beef, and is a cost that must be eliminated. Hello? You wouldn’t have a business if it weren’t for you subordinates under your management. TREAT THEM LIKE HUMAN BEINGS, INSTEAD OF PARASITES!

I think it is no coincidence that the two busiest parking lots in my city belong to Costco and Ikea: two companies known for paying well and treating well. How nobody else has caught onto this common sense I will never know.

Meanwhile, I worked for a company that wouldn't give a $0.50/hr raise but they had no problem spending thousands to recruit people who never stayed.


That described my first boss at my current employer and I will freely admit I goof off at work (like right now). The difference is I get everything and more done in the run of a day and am massively overskilled and overqualified. Thanks to the ridiculous job market in this part of Canada we regularly see Dentists, PhDs, etc applying for temporary jobs but that's another discussion.

The issue I have is that the lazy coworker wastes department money hiring contractors to do his own job, which he is grossly unqualified for (I am more qualified to do his job than he is). He got hired with no experience, few credentials and he hides in his office to avoid the wrath of everyone. Why every manager protects him and gives him special treatment is a mystery I will be able to solve: needless to say it's not because he is creative or productive in any way.

What REALLY puzzles me the most was when I worked in a Home Depot like store. I was given responsibility for an area of the store. I did an amazing job reorganizing it and was the happiest I had ever been at a job. Still, they railroaded me out of there in about 6 months. My supervisor later told me sales went up 25% in the time I took over and quickly dropped 25% when I left. I still can't figure out why I was practically shown the door: I never once asked for a raise because I was THAT happy at my job!

Employers all say they want bright, creative people but even when I am acknowledged as such a person I simply can't get ahead.