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2ukenkerl
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21 Aug 2008, 10:38 pm

MissPickwickian wrote:
My special ed adviser, an expert in all things autism, believes that Asperger's and HFA present differently in girls. The core symptoms are still there: social illiteracy, repetitive behavior and resistance to change, sensory sensitivity. However, the particulars (or secondary symptoms like clumsiness) tend to separate Asperger's girls and boys.

Her claims about girls:
--Girl aspies are less likely to lack imaginative play. In fact, many female aspies retreat into make-believe worlds to escape from difficult social realities.


YEAH RIGHT! Earlier, most girls tended to have the same kind of stereotypical worlds, and boys had more variety. I don't know so much about NOW, of course. But they were "NORMAL" kids!

MissPickwickian wrote:
--While boy aspies tend to become obsessed with science, technology, and math, the most common obsessions in girl aspies appear to be literature and animals.


Tell that to some here! There are exceptions on both sides!

MissPickwickian wrote:
--Boy aspies are easier to diagnose because they are more likely than girl aspies to lash out.


That doesn't appear to be the case here AT ALL! It is simply that girls have different problems, and the lashing out is more accepted.

MissPickwickian wrote:
--While boy aspies accept their lack of empathy as simply a boost to their capacity for logical thinking, girl aspies have a tendency to seek out emotional stimulation. Of course girls have the same autistic objectivity, but they are more likely to try to overcome it. This leads to many aspie girls having "morbid" interests (I have seen evidence of this on wrongplanet; no one has suggested a WP Auschwitz guys club, but the WP Auschwitz girls club, God forgive our irreverent souls, has five members). We whack ourselves over the head with tragedy to teach ourselves empathy.


I think some of the lack of empathy is misperception. For example, when I didn't react a certain way, or "under" reacted because I have seen worse against ME, I was called on lacking empathy. The accusations weren't reasonable though.

MissPickwickian wrote:
--With boys, social difficulties are more likely to result from compulsions and rituals. With girls, the root of the problem is often obsessions, whether the focus is on pet subjects or people.


WOW! Even reading some AS females posts here you can see how accepting men can be in general of problems in the women they care for. You can even see it on some series. I think females just hold most of the cards in relationships whether they are AS or not.

MissPickwickian wrote:
Now, my teacher and I agree that these are not universals; no one wants to make generalizations. However, there is a definite pattern. A pattern into which I fit almost perfectly.

Comments?


So how does she explain how so many girls think about playing house, and the like, and boys go more towards fantasy, adventure, etc...

Some boys are into animals, and some girls in math.

Look at some of the passive boys, and girls that sound downright violent. Granted, that is usually during things like meltdowns, but still...



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22 Aug 2008, 1:01 am

-- I am living proof that aspie girls like to retreat into their own fantasy worlds. I could not live without mine.
-- My interests have always involved fiction and/or animals in some way.
-- It's very rare that I lash out. Even as a child, I was never violent and I never objected to anything my parents told me.
-- I suppose my interest in vampires could be considered "morbid", especially since it contrasts so sharply with my sweet demeanor and bright clothing.
-- I find a great deal of comfort in obsessing over fictional characters. Rituals and compulsions mean nothing to me (especially since I was cured of OCD).



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22 Aug 2008, 1:28 am

--Girl aspies are less likely to lack imaginative play. In fact, many female aspies retreat into make-believe worlds to escape from difficult social realities.

Mhmm. Very much the truth here. I've made up several imaginary worlds, and have retreated into other peoples', ones where I understood how things worked and I was well liked. Apparently at one point, I was thought to be detaching from reality and not knowing the difference between what was real and what was fantasy. I've always just seen my fantasy worlds as a way of holding me over until reality was nicer for a while.

--While boy aspies tend to become obsessed with science, technology, and math, the most common obsessions in girl aspies appear to be literature and animals.

Yup. I've always read a lot, ever since I learned, and obsessed over quite a few literary works (Animorphs and Harry Potter, to name a couple). And I've always had an obsession with cats - breeds of cats, drawing cats, all of that. I've obsessed over anime, political causes and various art forms as well, however.

--Boy aspies are easier to diagnose because they are more likely than girl aspies to lash out.

Not so true in this case. :D; Yeah, I wasn't diagnosed, but man was I a fighter - still am. Usually verbally (I've always been known to put up a ferocious argument, something I was thankfully taught to do well by my parents), but sometimes physically as well - especially after prolonged periods of bullying or harassment where no one would listen to me or help.

--While boy aspies accept their lack of empathy as simply a boost to their capacity for logical thinking, girl aspies have a tendency to seek out emotional stimulation. Of course girls have the same autistic objectivity, but they are more likely to try to overcome it. This leads to many aspie girls having "morbid" interests (I have seen evidence of this on wrongplanet; no one has suggested a WP Auschwitz guys club, but the WP Auschwitz girls club, God forgive our irreverent souls, has five members). We whack ourselves over the head with tragedy to teach ourselves empathy.

8O This, if true, would certainly explain A LOT. I worried that it was sorta sick, the way I was drawn to the most screwed up people or characters in any given situation - that I liked them almost exclusively BECAUSE they were tragedy magnets, because they were alone and ostracized when what they needed most was a hug and acceptance. And I always just thought it had something to do with finding people I related to because they'd gone through things even remotely comparable to my own experience, and therefore thought I would understand them better than more "normal" and less damaged people.

--With boys, social difficulties are more likely to result from compulsions and rituals. With girls, the root of the problem is often obsessions, whether the focus is on pet subjects or people.

Definitely so. I don't have the set routines or ways of doing things that is often associated with AS, but I do tend to have obsessions, long and short, that I just sink into and don't think about anything else for a while.



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22 Aug 2008, 1:36 am

Boy "aspies" won't lack imaginative play too, just FYI and all. It's Autism that has the pretend/imaginative play "difficulties" as children in the majority of cases.

The rest seems to be accurate to some extent in that there are differences between males and females, no matter their disorder or lack thereof (what she said is taken from Attwood, who is sometimes right, sometimes wrong).



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22 Aug 2008, 1:45 am

BokeKaeru wrote:
--Girl aspies are less likely to lack imaginative play. In fact, many female aspies retreat into make-believe worlds to escape from difficult social realities.

Mhmm. Very much the truth here. I've made up several imaginary worlds, and have retreated into other peoples', ones where I understood how things worked and I was well liked. Apparently at one point, I was thought to be detaching from reality and not knowing the difference between what was real and what was fantasy. I've always just seen my fantasy worlds as a way of holding me over until reality was nicer for a while.


One of the main reasons I love my imaginary world so much is because I'm the most beloved person there. :)

I love my imaginary friends so very much that sometimes I forget that they're only a figment of my imagination and are consciously controlled by me - in fact, I secretly spent a good chunk of this summer up until last week actually believing that they existed in a parallel universe and could communicate with me spiritually. Kind of embarrassing when I actually type it out, but yeah... That's how it went.

I slide in and out of fantasy whether things are going great in reality or not. Good or bad times; I want to share them all with my imaginary friends.



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22 Aug 2008, 2:09 am

IdahoRose wrote:
One of the main reasons I love my imaginary world so much is because I'm the most beloved person there. :)

I love my imaginary friends so very much that sometimes I forget that they're only a figment of my imagination and are consciously controlled by me - in fact, I secretly spent a good chunk of this summer up until last week actually believing that they existed in a parallel universe and could communicate with me spiritually. Kind of embarrassing when I actually type it out, but yeah... That's how it went.

I slide in and out of fantasy whether things are going great in reality or not. Good or bad times; I want to share them all with my imaginary friends.


I've been told that I talk about my characters as if they were real people. I know that they don't exist in reality, but I still know enough about them that they seem like fleshed-out people who actually could exist. The only difference between them and real people is that I understand them, how they work and how to interact with them, whereas a huge number of real people are incomprehensible beyond a theoretical level.

I do tend to drift off into fantasy during good times, too. I just can focus on reality better when I'm having a good time (well, except in roleplaying and such, where I'm having a good time BECAUSE I'm escaping from reality!). But when I'm alone, my mind inevitably goes to where people who will always, unconditionally like me, live.



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22 Aug 2008, 2:36 am

Aspie girls sound really interesting.

I can't really comment other than to say as a male I seem to have many of the female traits and many of the male traits. I very rarely lashed out. I loved imaginative worlds (fantasy books,Star Wars) up until I was about 17 and then I transitioned into science fiction. I tend to have both obsessions and ritualistic behaviours. I'm interested in science, technology, animals and literature. I lack empathy and I;m not particularly interested in increasing this. I am not morbid at all.



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22 Aug 2008, 2:42 am

Like Hector, I am very much in the girl camp. I have always disliked maths, technology logic etc. Dramas of the heart appeal so much more to me than blackboard and chalk.

I think I have a very strong feminine side. I have just completed writing a book which will be published in January which explores these themes in great depth.

Chris


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22 Aug 2008, 4:06 am

My niece exhibits an obsessive interest in animals. It has become a routine for me to show her different animals on the internet. For a three year old who has difficulty articulating her feelings and desires, she has no problems learning words like hippopotamus or porcupine or rhinoceros. Her all time favorite is a video clip of a galloping giraffe which we have to watch every night. Her routine is fixed and she must do the same things every day. So long as the schedule is kept to, she is happy, pleasantly manageable and a naughty joy to be with. Disrupt the schedule and she becomes lost and disoriented. The tantrums become implacable and she will start to harm herself by doing things like hitting her head against the ground. From a very early age, she has showed very little interest in engaging with others. Although she will seek to imitate what other children do, she will not make a move to play with them. Nor will she always allow people into her ambit. For instance, watching animal videos is apparently something that is done at night, so during the day, in the morning for instance when she is brought over, she completely ignores me despite my attempts to catch her attention. Come nightfall, when it seems I have been slated to make an appearance in her tightly scripted schedule, she runs into my room and noisily insists on watching those same animal videos again and again.

How it came about that she would watch animal videos on my laptop is accidental. One evening she came in and wanted to see what I was doing. In my bid to entertain her, I showed her some animal pictures off the internet and she decided that this must happen every night. She is genuinely interested in these animals and a video of a baby elephant using its big stumpy feet to scratch its face really entertains her no matter how many times she watches it. Why is she so interested in these animals though? :)



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22 Aug 2008, 5:13 am

corroonb wrote:
Aspie girls sound really interesting.

I can't really comment other than to say as a male I seem to have many of the female traits and many of the male traits. I very rarely lashed out. I loved imaginative worlds (fantasy books,Star Wars) up until I was about 17 and then I transitioned into science fiction. I tend to have both obsessions and ritualistic behaviours. I'm interested in science, technology, animals and literature. I lack empathy and I;m not particularly interested in increasing this. I am not morbid at all.


Same here:

Quote:
--Girl aspies are less likely to lack imaginative play. In fact, many female aspies retreat into make-believe worlds to escape from difficult social realities.


Though I lack any play, I DON'T lack imagination

Quote:
--Boy aspies are easier to diagnose because they are more likely than girl aspies to lash out.


It is RARE for me to lash out! That was actually a problem with me because "NORMAL" males figured that was FEAR!

Quote:
--While boy aspies accept their lack of empathy as simply a boost to their capacity for logical thinking, girl aspies have a tendency to seek out emotional stimulation. Of course girls have the same autistic objectivity, but they are more likely to try to overcome it. This leads to many aspie girls having "morbid" interests (I have seen evidence of this on wrongplanet; no one has suggested a WP Auschwitz guys club, but the WP Auschwitz girls club, God forgive our irreverent souls, has five members). We whack ourselves over the head with tragedy to teach ourselves empathy.


With ME, empathy problems are USUALLY misperception

Quote:
--With boys, social difficulties are more likely to result from compulsions and rituals. With girls, the root of the problem is often obsessions, whether the focus is on pet subjects or people.


My social difficulties today are mostly missing cues.



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22 Aug 2008, 5:20 am

That would explain about my childhood fascination with cancer (no one I knew had it...)

I'm glad something does.



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22 Aug 2008, 6:30 am

IdahoRose wrote:
One of the main reasons I love my imaginary world so much is because I'm the most beloved person there. :)

I love my imaginary friends so very much that sometimes I forget that they're only a figment of my imagination and are consciously controlled by me - in fact, I secretly spent a good chunk of this summer up until last week actually believing that they existed in a parallel universe and could communicate with me spiritually. Kind of embarrassing when I actually type it out, but yeah... That's how it went.

I slide in and out of fantasy whether things are going great in reality or not. Good or bad times; I want to share them all with my imaginary friends.


When I was about 11-14 I got into an obsession with an imaginary planet which caused some problems: I got so swept in that I found it difficult to distinguish between fantasy and reality. The planet was created in vast amounts of detail: different tribes, cultures, history and mythology... they had an alphabet and the beginnings of languages. It was my homeland. I had a couple of incredibly understanding friends who dealt with me insisting that it was all true but actually, I thought it was. I was finding it very difficult because to a large extent the world inside my head was more real and more powerful to me than the "real" world.

The OP sounds pretty good to me although I would dispute the bit about us retreating into our own worlds in order to escape the pain of social ineptitude. As a kid I lived inside my head a lot of the time, simply because I loved being there. I wasn't upset about not having friends - I got irritated when people intruded on my thoughts. It wasn't a defense mechanism or escape route - I regarded it more as a talent. And you get away with it as a kid. By 14, when I was still officially from a different planet, I was seriously hardcore weird by other people's standards. But pretty much oblivious nonetheless.


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22 Aug 2008, 8:52 am

BokeKaeru wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
One of the main reasons I love my imaginary world so much is because I'm the most beloved person there. :)

I love my imaginary friends so very much that sometimes I forget that they're only a figment of my imagination and are consciously controlled by me - in fact, I secretly spent a good chunk of this summer up until last week actually believing that they existed in a parallel universe and could communicate with me spiritually. Kind of embarrassing when I actually type it out, but yeah... That's how it went.

I slide in and out of fantasy whether things are going great in reality or not. Good or bad times; I want to share them all with my imaginary friends.


I've been told that I talk about my characters as if they were real people. I know that they don't exist in reality, but I still know enough about them that they seem like fleshed-out people who actually could exist. The only difference between them and real people is that I understand them, how they work and how to interact with them, whereas a huge number of real people are incomprehensible beyond a theoretical level.

I do tend to drift off into fantasy during good times, too. I just can focus on reality better when I'm having a good time (well, except in roleplaying and such, where I'm having a good time BECAUSE I'm escaping from reality!). But when I'm alone, my mind inevitably goes to where people who will always, unconditionally like me, live.


Bolded where I have been told the same by my mother in my early teens. People have even acted like I thought they were real too because they would say they aren't even real. Duh I already know that.



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22 Aug 2008, 9:19 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Boy "aspies" won't lack imaginative play too, just FYI and all. It's Autism that has the pretend/imaginative play "difficulties" as children in the majority of cases.


well i used to line up my toys and im diagnosed with AS :?



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22 Aug 2008, 9:20 am

MissPickwickian wrote:
My special ed adviser, an expert in all things autism, believes that Asperger's and HFA present differently in girls. The core symptoms are still there: social illiteracy, repetitive behavior and resistance to change, sensory sensitivity. However, the particulars (or secondary symptoms like clumsiness) tend to separate Asperger's girls and boys.

Yes and no. There are general sexual traits, but there is also what are commonly called left and right brained people, left brained fitting the Aspie profile. Autism is equal opertunity, so we get all the mixes. A right brained Tomboy presents as more male than myself.

Her claims about girls:
--Girl aspies are less likely to lack imaginative play. In fact, many female aspies retreat into make-believe worlds to escape from difficult social realities.


I think we all have imaginative play, we just do not play with others. There may be differances, between my inaginary world and others, mine is fact based, but is inhabited by people. They are rational characters, true to their character sheet.


--While boy aspies tend to become obsessed with science, technology, and math, the most common obsessions in girl aspies appear to be literature and animals.


I think we would find a fact based world view, and an emotional world view, in both. I may never understand people, but I can understand Science. I seem incapable of learning the emotional feeling thing.


--Boy aspies are easier to diagnose because they are more likely than girl aspies to lash out.


Some truth here, for boys have a rough phase, trying to establish themselves in a pecking order, and the boy who is reading books gets hit from behind. After a few times, he makes an example of someone. This causes great upset, for the only thing worse for the biggest bully around, than getting b***h slapped by a nerd, would be being beat up by a girl.


Once it starts, it does cause results, for the teachers who looked the other way as ten people hit one, when one strikes back, the teacher is next on the list, what pecking order, I can take you out too.


--While boy aspies accept their lack of empathy as simply a boost to their capacity for logical thinking, girl aspies have a tendency to seek out emotional stimulation. Of course girls have the same autistic objectivity, but they are more likely to try to overcome it. This leads to many aspie girls having "morbid" interests (I have seen evidence of this on wrongplanet; no one has suggested a WP Auschwitz guys club, but the WP Auschwitz girls club, God forgive our irreverent souls, has five members). We whack ourselves over the head with tragedy to teach ourselves empathy.

With boys, we have the same thing, but we are running the camps. Genocide is a very male answer. Life has taught us that empathy is emotional blackmail, from people who have no logical means of interacting. Empathy is a con, not having it offers some protection, and there is another feeling.


--With boys, social difficulties are more likely to result from compulsions and rituals. With girls, the root of the problem is often obsessions, whether the focus is on pet subjects or people.


Doing things in a way that makes sense to me, reaches my goals, and not being subject to manipulation, that we call compulsions and rituals. The other side is those with an obsession to manipulate and change, to destroy us. Just ever so nice, with fluffy bunnies, and bloodstained hands.


Now, my teacher and I agree that these are not universals; no one wants to make generalizations. However, there is a definite pattern. A pattern into which I fit almost perfectly.

Comments?


The male pattern is doing it face to face, for those who cannot play that game, there is the knife in the back, or better yet, manipulating someone else to do the backstabbing.

I have found this is not a sex trait, both do both.

Those that can do, those that can't try to destroy what they cannot be.

Trust no one, always watch your back.

I would agree with Danielismyname, this is pure Attwood, the NT pop psyco writer and talk show guest.

With him, saying that girls manifest different is an after thought, for where they all went to school, AS, overruled sex, personality, life history, it is a psycho means of depersonalization. That is not a person, it is numbers from the DSM, and I am the Great Psycho, doing the selections!

This boy knows as much about the human mind as any TV personality, "It's the Tony Show!"

Truth is it is a personality type, nothing more, and it falls on a wide varity of other types, sex, other personality traits, social situation, intelligence, and user results will vary.

It is not Science, it is Religion, now running second to the other storefront religion of the 1960's, Scientology.

This is the sales pitch of a psychobabbling psycho quack. A little truth mixed with a lot of baloney.

Tony has Attwood Syndrome.



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22 Aug 2008, 10:09 am

I could comment, being a girl and having something of both AS and HFA and all. I fit none, so I won't comment on each individually. Just saying I didn't fit any of these as a kid.

Nevertheless, quite interesting.

I think it's got less to do with ASDs, but a lot with gender roles.

Some of typical and still very true gender stereotypes that can easily be observed in kindergarten, elementary school and secondary school are:

Boys rather build things, play physically, fight, girls try
Boys are into machines usually, girls into animals.
Boys are expected to not be crybabies, girls are allowed to be that and are encouraged to seek comfort.
Boys are into maths and logical problems, girls into languages and arts.
Boys have a lot more physical activity going on, girls grow into discussions, talking and thinking.

I see parents who treat their kids less according to demand of gender roles and the boys have developed some 'female qualities' (express emotions, care for others outwardly) and vice versa with girls.

Education and environment seem to have a very pronounced influence on a probable predispositions and the eventual development of gender roles.


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