Why do most people here think that AS and autism

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The actual diagnostic criteria in the DSM-IV-TR are virtually identical except that for Asperger's there cannot be a speech delay, whereas autism must have either delay or absence of speech, impairment in the ability to hold a conversation, stereotyped and repetitive use of idiosyncratic language, or bizarrely, a lack of varied, spontaneous imitative or make-believe play. But the descriptions (which are much longer and more detailed than the diagnostic criteria) make them sound far more different.

You can read the whole business online here... I haven't actually read all of it before, only excerpts, so I will now. I'll try to summarize after I have.

The DSM-IV-TR (this is how most people actually see them as different, and it's close to Kanner's and Asperger's original disorders); it's worth noting that it states in some cases it's hard to differentiate between the two, but this is only in some cases (people with Autism have far greater sensory problems too, which is in the DSM-IV-TR too):

One problem with this is there are those who meet the criteria for one, but better fit the expanded description for the other, while really appearing fairly mixed between the two.


We do not really know whether classic Kanner autism has one causal state, or multiple causal states. The same is true of Asperger's Syndrome. We do not know what causes any of these conditions. Classic Kanner autism and Asperger's Syndrome are both simply behavior cluster hypotheses. We do not know that Asperger's Syndrome has different causes to classic Kanner autism, we do not know what causes either, or whether either label is describing behavior clusters that all share a common etiological cause.


The problem is people with each condition can vary a great deal to any particular individual with the condition, while simultaneously being more similar to someone with the converse condition. Both conditions entail atypical development that can be very individuated in profile. To pull one developmental milestone arbitrarily out of the bunch and have it coincidently happen to be a unique identifier of some underlying significant and stable difference (in cause and/or effective support/intervention, and/or prognosis, etc) would be rather lucky to say the least.

There really is no reason to believe all people with either condition should be treated the same as all others so diagnosed. So far as I know, the evidence primarily points to very diverse developmental profiles/progressions and 'outcomes', very different personalities, phenotypes, and all around 'in-group' diversity that indicates a strong need for individuation of all care and intervention.




Personally I do not know how well the line drawn between the two matches reality (indeed, since the line varies a great deal both regionally and between physicians, at least some people have it wrong at least some of the time). Regardless of the 'clinical facts' about the differences and similarities of various individuals or between groups, I think in terms of practical usage, the word 'autistic' has a meaning is along the lines of 'characterised by, of, or pertaining to an autistic spectrum disorder'. If someone intends to specifically refer to classic Kanner autism, then they could simply insert 'classic Kanner' before the word 'autistic'.

I've read the DSM detailed descriptions and they only seemed different to me in severity...but of course I'm no doctor. My son had an extreemly notable language delay...very repititive, very idiosyncratic...only family members could understand much of anything he said until about seven. However, by the time he was diagnosed, he had caught up a bit. As he has gotten older, he is learning to adapt his behaviors...just as I have over the years. One could say he has 'improved' with age but I think he is just learning to mask it, like many aspies do. I still have trouble thinking of them as different things...some just seem more severe than others. I think I was also much more severe when I was younger, but I've learned. Still does not change anything though.

pandd,

They did a study to see if the two disorders as they're defined in the DSM are two distinct conditions, and they found that they neatly fall into two groups (like how Anxiety Disorders fall into their separate piles).

The problem arises when people use criteria outside of the DSM for Asperger's.

That does seem to be something of an issue.

However, I think it is worth noting that the expanded descriptions use words like "typically" and "often". It shouldn't be surprising that some people best fit the "typical profile" of one even though they actually have the other according to the diagnostic criteria.

There's an overlap.

From what I understand the key for a difference is language delay. If I didn't have a history of language delay I probably would have AS, but I don't because of that. It's silly really... but I guess my psych knows more than I do.

AS dudes are autistic, they don't have autism,

I think of having autism as kind of like being a mammal. Bunnies, kitties, and puppies are all kinds of mammals, the same way traditional autism, Asperger's, and distinctions among the broader autism phenotype are all kinds of autism. So AS people are autistic - they just aren't traditional autistic autistic. Does that make any sense?

Lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars, (can't think of any others) are all cats. They all have different names for their breed but they are still cats.


So PDD-NOS and AS is still autism but it just has a different name because it's a different type of autism.


You can call a lion a "lion" or a "cat" just like an aspie can call themselves "autistic" or "aspie" or say they have autism.


You can call a Dalmatian a "Dalmatian" or a "dog."


Get it?

Yeah. This is what I was trying to get at.

i dont think theres much of difference between the two either, like ive said before. Aspies are more rather into socializing, while auties are more into their own world, and Auties usually have more severe sensory issues, and usually aspies tend to hide their stims, while Auties may notice their stimming and dont care lol. Stuff like that, i dont always say language delay is part of it because a lot of doctors are diagnosing children with aspergers even if they have a language delay. I do think Auties have more severe problems with their language rather then aspies, but other then all of that, there is defintely not much of a difference. I think aspergers, pddnos, autism is all autism, you can be mildly, moderately, or severely affected in each of those diagnosis's which makes it hard to tell apart sometimes. If i met an aspie and he/she calls themselves autistic, i would agree with them, because they are affected by autism, one way or another, doesnt even matter if their mildly aspergers, their still autistic in my eyes. Autism affects each individual differently, some never talk, but also never stim, some talk up a storm but also stim so much they can't even drive. Its all so confusing!

Shades,

I used to think exactly the same thing that it was strange to put Autism and Aspergers together...

Then I got one son diagnosed with Aspergers, and the other with High Functioning Autism.

The difference?

The HFA child was diagnosed at a younger age (two years younger) and the "speech delay" was more obvious then.
Now, he's caught up and both children are fairly similar in terms of speech.

Now, I can see how there would be a a difference i n Low Functioning Autism, but not HFA.

gbollard,

Do you notice that they behave differently in the way their social impairments manifest [as well as repetitive behaviours]?

There's not much difference between "LFA" and "HFA", just FYI and all, i.e., they can look the same until one takes an IQ test (and they still look the same then).

I know a few people with Rett's who would blend well into users here. It comes in mild forms that without a genetic test would be thought to be regressive autism (I know women who have found out due to having a child with the severe form, so I don't doubt there are many women with it who don't even know it). And even some people with the severe form can type using eye-tracking and the like.

On the topic of the OP:

Autism means all "PDDs" and it also means one specific "PDD", depending on usage. Kanner's and Asperger's patients had enough overlap that they could have been interchangeable among many of them. Asperger called it autism when he looked at it. Lorna Wing, who invented the term Asperger's, said it was to call attention to a specific form of autism, not to create a truly new "syndrome". She now regrets doing so, because people have misinterpreted her intent.

There are certainly divisions among autistic people, and one of them might well end up being along the lines of the speech aspects that differentiate the two now, but it's certainly not incorrect to call Asperger's autism, in that context autism means the broader category anyway. There are many words that have both narrow and broad meanings.

(But even "autism" as Kanner described it, would've been possible to diagnose some of Asperger's patients with it, and vice versa. Most of his patients could talk, some even talked early. One talked incessantly about his interests just like a modern stereotype of Asperger's. The two descriptions of autism.. it's historical accident that you're not sitting here saying "but Kanner's and autism are not the same thing, autism means (insert "Asperger" stereotype here)".)