Picking Up Social Situations Intuitively....

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01 Feb 2009, 11:56 am

Thank you, Greentea, for your last post! That explains it so well. I knew there was something, but I just couldn´t quite figure it out or put it into words. That was very helpful.

Greentea wrote:

Compensate and overcome are two very different things. We can compensate for the lack of intuition with insight, but when what's needed is speed of adaptation to a new kind of social situation to us, we will always blunder painfully. .

That is so true!

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millie
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01 Feb 2009, 12:08 pm

[

Quote:

quote="Morgana"]Thank you, Greentea, for your last post! That explains it so well. I knew there was something, but I just couldn´t quite figure it out or put it into words. That was very helpful.

Greentea wrote:

That is so true!

[/quote]

I do agree Morgana. Greentea has excelled herself there wtih her articulation. :wink:

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01 Feb 2009, 12:19 pm

Aufgehen wrote:

In my opinion when NTs speak of empathy and intuition, they are actually referring to the ego, the socially controlled aspect of human nature that needs to get approval from their peers, that has a pecking order that is decided by.. whom? I don't know who decides the pecking order, but our inability to see our place and do what we are "supposed to do" while giving them whatever respect or admiration or praise or attention or pity or whatever that their place provides them, is utterly offensive to them.

Its all about the surface of things, their labels of social intuition and empathy are really just the ability to stay on the surface and react to everything on that level and doesn't actually have anything to do with being intuitive or empathic in the deeper sense (or they would be able to empathize with us too and they can't). I believe that one of our problems is that we do get more and we are more sensitive to what is going on, on a deeper level (even if we don't realize it) and don't realize that we are supposed to (or don't know how to ) pretend that what is really happening is not really happening, that is why they can't tell us what we don't get, because then they would have to admit to playing games, manipulation and less than altruistic intentions and to someone who just wants to feel like a good person and needs to be pleased with themselves, that is hard for them to do, they are afraid on a very deep unconscious level that they will perish if they see through their own illusions.

Oh my God, this has been so true in my life! Although, like I said, it´s hard for me usually to form instant impressions, when I do form impressions, I seem to see right through to the "core" of the person. Many of my social "faux pas" have to do with my inability to keep up the facade that people want me to see, rather than their real self. It´s like I just disregard that external stuff, even if I do notice it. I had trouble often in male-female relationships, and I think that´s a big part of it: I just didn´t realize that people wanted me to react to them as if they were the person they were pretending to be. (I think NT men are into this pretending, big time!) I really dislike that, as the relationships are then so superficial. I would rather not connect in that case.

I realize that the friends I have today are more honest people, who do less of that pretending than others.

Thanks for your post. Good luck with your mother! If it makes any difference, I often don´t pick up on intended mind games either; (and when I do, I purposely don´t play along). People often get really irritated about this. I think it´s a plus though, on our side. I really don´t like mind games at all, and don´t understand why people do them.

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01 Feb 2009, 12:22 pm

Well, I was in a rush to go to work, but in fact it's not that we will always blunder in new situations. It's just that we'll always be fumbling in the dark and hit and miss will be always out of our control.

In a nutshell, the advantages of intuition over insight are:
1. speed
2. can be used in situations totally new to us
3. requires no energy
4. can be applied since one is a toddler rather than a senior citizen.
5. doesn't require decades of trial and error (accumulation of failures) like insight does

The advantages of insight over intuition are:
1. Insight is always accurate, because it's long tried and true.
2. Insight sees beyond the here and now, to the future potential and implications.
3. Insight makes us more humane towards others and ourselves.
4. Insight stems from a place of wisdom rather than instinct, so it satisfies our soul and self-esteem more.

I'm working at accepting that I have no social intuition (empathy) and never will. Working in the sense of forgiving myself for my recent past and future social blunders. I think acceptance of one's limitations can be very liberating, rather than as many say -depressing. Because when I accept my limitations as a given, I am free to stop trying to change the unchangeable and focus on improving what can be improved on.

I'm starting to laugh at my (painful) social blunders, and that's a good sign :-)

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01 Feb 2009, 12:23 pm

millie wrote:

[

Quote:

quote="Morgana"]Thank you, Greentea, for your last post! That explains it so well. I knew there was something, but I just couldn´t quite figure it out or put it into words. That was very helpful.

Greentea wrote:

That is so true!

I do agree Morgana. Greentea has excelled herself there wtih her articulation. :wink:

[/quote]

Like I´ve said before, I´ve learned so much by being on Wrong Planet! More than all the books combined. It´s so great to be able to ask questions, and get thought provoking feedback! We can all teach each other, through our experiences.

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01 Feb 2009, 12:41 pm

It's definitely NOT just the ability to read faces, body language, and tone. I know this because I have so much more trouble with my aspie/autistic traits on message boards than face to face. Yes, those abilities help in social interacting. But there's something that most folks have, that I'm lacking or weak in, which comes to play in message board intereactions. (Not this one, where most of us are aspies, but other ones.) It's not facial expressions, body language, and tone of voice. Everyone is without those, on message boards.

I understand it as a social thinking module. One that's subconscious. Kinda like we (most of us, unless something's wrong with us) don't have to think about how to walk. Our brain processes how to walk subconsciously. I think there's something subconsious, a social thinking module, that helps NTs in social situations, that we are lacking or weak in.

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01 Feb 2009, 12:43 pm

Thank you for the praise, friends. It really does help after a day of being out there with all the rejection, ignoring and humiliation I get.

Aufgehen, I notice you're new to WP. Good acquisition for us! Welcome aboard and thank you for sharing. Aspies acquire such wisdom along life that they're a pleasure to be around. At least for me, because wisdom is what I most like in a person.

I totally agree about where many of the undiagnosed female Aspies are. They're in the shadow of an abusive relationship where they've lost all self-confidence and are convinced they deserve the abuse. I somehow never dared say this on WP, but that's my opinion about the small number of Aspie women in statistics. Many don't need to seek a diagnosis because not working and being good with kids is considered ok for a woman, so in many cases they can camouflage better in society once they're married.

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01 Feb 2009, 12:52 pm

MR, I know what you mean because I studied Linguistics and we studied this. Humans are born with PREDISPOSITIONS. Predispositions to acquire language, to learn to walk, to acquire social intuition, etc. Aspies lack the predisposition to acquire social intuition which at ages 3-4 develops into an actual skill.

And I agree about AS having nothing to do with reading body language. I was kicked from almost all website forums I was ever a member of, for standing up to the in-house bullies, saying uncomfortable truths ("The King is Nude" kind of thing) and threatening the pecking order.

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01 Feb 2009, 12:52 pm

Quote:

Greentea wrote:

well as for undx'ed AS women and abuse - you know my journey there with homelessness, rapes, domestic abuse, drugs and the streets.. it is far more common than one would believe.
and we do have incredibly good hearts actually - many of us, with great blind spots in social relatiing - and that makes it quite dangerous for women.

anyway greentea, nice to read your latest breakdowns on this thread. very good.

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Last edited by millie on 01 Feb 2009, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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01 Feb 2009, 12:58 pm

Morgana wrote:

I just didn´t realize that people wanted me to react to them as if they were the person they were pretending to be.

That's what everyone wants. However, you're not expected to grant this grace to everyone. Only to someone who is higher than you in the pecking order. The definition of someone that's higher than you in the pecking order is: a person that, at any given moment in time, needs you less than you need them.

All the social skills are only applicable with those higher than us in the pecking order. With those lower than you, you're not only allowed to, but expected, to behave as you wish.

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01 Feb 2009, 1:01 pm

MR wrote:

I understand it as a social thinking module. One that's subconscious. Kinda like we (most of us, unless something's wrong with us) don't have to think about how to walk. Our brain processes how to walk subconsciously. I think there's something subconsious, a social thinking module, that helps NTs in social situations, that we are lacking or weak in.

That totally makes sense. I notice something like that too, that I´m the one that "thinks differently", or is somehow "out of sync" with the others. It´s like they know something that I don´t know, which seems totally obvious to them, and they expect me to know it too, but I´m clueless.

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03 Feb 2009, 9:22 am

Sola wrote:

Millie....I can relate a lot to what you are saying.....Also.....I empathize with animals quite well....they are honest. I understand them and respect them. I also sense things about humans....FAKE human behavior is SO OBVIOUS and to me, the strange thing is.....nts generally CAN'T see it, or at least don't acknowledge this fake behavior's existence......to me it (fake behavior) is obscene. That's not an exaggeration.

I very much agree with this. Although in some ways, we have this difficulty with 'reading' other people, in other ways, some of us actually seem to be able to read them better than NTs can! Or perhaps... they can see it and choose to wilfully ignore it for some unknown reason.

I can't ignore it. I can't bear people who I perceive as false. I would actually rather someone was rude and rejecting but I knew where they were coming from than they pretended to care and be interested when I knew they weren't.

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03 Feb 2009, 12:34 pm

Morgana wrote:

So can anyone explain exactly what this means? Is there more involved, or is it really ONLY the ability to read non-verbal cues? Just curious...

I think there's more involved than non-verbal cues. I lack some sort of sponteneity even if I do read what people are communicating. I still have no idea what people expect me to say. That's what it is. I don't know what's expected. I don't know how to act in response to someone else's acting.

Last edited by marshall on 03 Feb 2009, 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Feb 2009, 2:45 pm

Sola wrote:

That's interesting. I perceive the same thing often.

Aufgehen wrote:

Its all about the surface of things, their labels of social intuition and empathy are really just the ability to stay on the surface and react to everything on that level and doesn't actually have anything to do with being intuitive or empathic in the deeper sense (or they would be able to empathize with us too and they can't). I believe that one of our problems is that we do get more and we are more sensitive to what is going on, on a deeper level (even if we don't realize it) and don't realize that we are supposed to (or don't know how to ) pretend that what is really happening is not really happening, that is why they can't tell us what we don't get, because then they would have to admit to playing games, manipulation and less than altruistic intentions and to someone who just wants to feel like a good person and needs to be pleased with themselves, that is hard for them to do, they are afraid on a very deep unconscious level that they will perish if they see through their own illusions.

For me sometimes it looks like people are acting out a caricature personality, though I'm currently struggling to find better words to sum it up. They are very good at subconsciously projecting a certain kind of image - so good, in fact, that they perceive their real self becoming the image they're subconsciously creating for others. Or perhaps the belief is what makes it so easy for them. Yet these same people who are so good at acting and manipulation appear to be completely lacking in introspection. If it's in the interest of their own ego to believe something then nothing will ever change their mind about it. They always believe the thing that's most advantageous to their own ego and then judge people based on those prejudices. Their so-called empathy isn't about intuitively perceiving reality as it is, it's about intuitively perceiving a version of reality that allows them to manipulate the situation to their advantage.

Last edited by marshall on 03 Feb 2009, 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Feb 2009, 4:19 pm

marshall wrote:

Morgana wrote:

So can anyone explain exactly what this means? Is there more involved, or is it really ONLY the ability to read non-verbal cues? Just curious...

Yeah, that´s how it is with me too. Thanks for your input!

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03 Feb 2009, 4:23 pm

Quote:

Morgana wrote:

marshall wrote:

Morgana wrote:

So can anyone explain exactly what this means? Is there more involved, or is it really ONLY the ability to read non-verbal cues? Just curious...

Yeah, that´s how it is with me too. Thanks for your input!

i can relate to this too. and i also spend an inordinate amount of time trying to analyse and figure out what is actually required of me.. that is perhaps the most exhausting aspect....so much so that the simple solution is to reduce teh amount of face to face contact with others so that i can ge on with my special interests and my life.

good thread by the way.

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