Picking Up Social Situations Intuitively....

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Sorry I can't remain quiet any longer...
My major point is obvious: We aren't wired for the social order. Forcing us to participate in it for our survival is tantamount to genocide.

If we participate in the pecking order at all, we're at risk to be next anyway. Remember that [I'm using WP posts as a basis for this estimate]... apparently more than half of us have had history of being perpetually scapegoated. And more than likely this scenario will keep on repeating itself ad nauseum when we try to "fit in". I maintain we are a great deal more safe and psychologically stable by not playing...whenever that is possible. We aren't wired to play the pecking order.


Another thing that is very confusing for them is to have an aspie presenting with conflict, confusion, vague boundaries, ineptitude, lack of graciousness, self-involvement, fear and resentment in their body language ...yet simultaneously trying to persuade the NT to be nice to them. This almost never works. And even if the aspie makes their best attempt at "fitting in" unless it is done skillfully, it will fail with the nearly inevitable consequence of being scapegoated. I believe 2 things that help us are: (1)being pleasant and (2)being consistent and clear about what we will and will not do.

From my pov--Greentea you have, in essence, condoned the spapegoating of aspies who will be first in the sacrifical abuse social rites/survival of the fittest and all that crap ....and--pouring salt in the wound--you have told us there is no way out. I beg to differ and so [I think] does Morgana, if I have interpreted her post correctly...which follows


Absolutely! Win-win solutions. I believe win-win is possible....perhaps 60-70% of the time. There are always circumstances in which you have no choice but to submit...but we need to have the faith that those can be significantly reduced to an acceptable percentage....

That's my position and I'm sticking to it!! [constructive feedback welcomed]

For spectrumites, submitting to the PO almost inevitably will involve being scapegoated.


And if there are any Aspies in the workplace...it means watching them be sacrificed on the scapegoat altar without saying a word in their defense..


Spectrumites aren't wired to play the pecking order. When we do we will be offered up on the sacrifical altar designated for scapegoats. Furthermore....repeatedly doing something you clearly know is wrong and refusing to feel remorseful enough to change your behavior is the primary trait of a sociopath. I imagine if Jim Jones [notorious sociopath] had informed the 900 people who died at his hands in Jonestown, Guyana...that he spiked the kool-aid with poison....at least some of them would have wanted to escape. He killed 900 people nearly a third of those were children. An Aspie trying to play the social order with machinations and manipulations to their advantage is playing Russian Roulette! This is what accomplished sociopaths manage to pull off.

I have drawn my boundaries. Sociopaths are outside those boundaries.

Does anyone know all the answers?

I think the latter is the true motivation (though they might subconsciously convince themselves of the former). The appearance of knowing all the answers is what gives people the power to control others. To most people uncertainty appears as weakness. Why do you think the religious and political institutions have always persecuted "heretical" thinkers?

Usually I can differentiate between people whose sole purpose in gaining knowledge is power from those who are genuinely curious about the world. People whose motivation is power learn just enough so they can be good BS'ers. Once they reach a certain point on the PO they stop learning because they will NEVER learn from someone equal to or below them on the PO. They are entitled to have the final say merely by their social rank. Business oriented professions tend to be filled with these types of people. That’s why these types of careers are so problematic for us.

Last edited by marshall on 15 Feb 2009, 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alba, thank you so much for writing that, I have been trying to find a way to get that exact thought out (about the scapegoating), but because it is very emotionally charged for me I just couldn't do it...

I have spoken on here about my marriage to a man that was Diagnosed with BPD and DID and if it weren't for him being so good at stroking egos and playing the nice guy, he would most likely be diagnosed with something more sinister such as a sociopath.. because I was totally unaware of the PO and such, he was able to blame me for just about everything that he was doing, without me even realizing he was doing it (and I am not easily fooled as I am usually the first to see through the inconsistencies in people), I am not able right now to really go into the details (I am literally shaking as I write this), but suffice to say that he was a bad guy that everyone wanted to believe was a good guy and from studying his patterns over the last two decades, I can tell you that he specifically targets aspies and auties in his life, in that he always finds one to befriend and use and also blame and unfortunately those of us who don't make friends easily are easy prey for people like that, and if it weren't for me having a neurologist (that also had a degree in psychiatry) that saw right through him he would have completely destroyed me as he did his first wife and every other girlfriend he has had, I have spent years recovering from what he did on top of dealing with realizing that I am the one that society considers dysfunctional, scary to think that the majority of people would rather deal with someone that uses them and is (clinically) insane than someone that is too logical and doesn't know how to make small talk beyond the basics without the ability to use ego stroking to make them think I am a good person, because when it comes down to it, in a social order truth and action mean absolutely nothing and words are all that matters and don't think that there aren't people out there who can see right through us no matter how hard we try to appear normal and they have no remorse in using us because they convince themselves that we are inferior and feel nothing.

Sorry to be so intense, but I just don't want to see this happen to other people and what got me involved with this man is being unaware of the dangers that are out there for us and btw, I met him at work.

I a possible way to avoid being scapegoated is to make it uncomfortable for them to abuse you right from the get-go. I think is often one of those things that starts fairly innocuously and then gradually grows into something more sinister. They get more and more comfortable piling on abuse the more you let it go. It might be easier if you can recognize it early and show with body language that you aren't in the mood to be messed with. Know exactly what the boundaries are that aren't to be crossed and let them know when they cross it.

Just on the side issue of sociopaths, it's quite common for them to befriend aspies. we sometimes have threads here about sociopaths, just to try and bring it to people's attention. I seem to be a magnet for them, so I tend to identify them quickly now. I'll go and revive one of our old 'sociopath awareness' threads sometime today.

Your contributions Aufgehen are very much appreciated.
You're welcome.

**

We were set up for suffering in our adult lives by our childhood conditioning. We've been brutally traumatized, subtly and exquisitely tortured thru intimidation and psychological maiming--for 18 years in the social equivalent of a Concentration Camp. We're not prime candidates for the workforce.

If anyone is interested in what I wrote about this Concentration Camp, please see:
it's time for an alternative to fitting in---

www.wrongplanet.net/postp2039769.html#2039769

Last edited by alba on 16 Feb 2009, 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

here's one of our sociopath awareness threads, I remember participating in this one. I think it goes off topic toward the end but that's pretty standard. It's getting a bit old now and I don't think the mods like you reviving old threads, so I'll just cite it.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postx85171-60-0.html

but if you do a site search on the subject there's others as well.

Last edited by Postperson on 15 Feb 2009, 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry to hear about your experience, Aufgehen...that sounds pretty grim. I´m glad you were able to get out of it.

I have had problems with many strange types and users in the past. Nowadays, I seem much better at figuring out who to avoid, due to experience. I guess it´s something we all go through.

Which brings me back to another question that relates to this thread; how do they intuitively know to pick on us? Sociopath-types who are strangers out on the street, who have never seen me before, make a beeline for me. But why? Once again, they seem to be sensing something that is inexplicable....

Sorry to hear of the problem you had, I assume you have left this person behind now? What struck me is about the "bad guy that everyone wants to believe is good". Why, why, why do they do that? And this in total contrast to the "good guy that everyone wants to believe is bad". This description would fit a lot of Aspies, though not all, of course. Considering we're supposed to lack empathy and knowledge of social situations, it's incredible the number of times I've felt something about someone that everyone thinks is a "real charmer". Then later on somebody says "what a surprise, he got arrested for beating up his wife the other day. Who would have thought it he seemed such a nice guy?". Not a surprise to me! Yet even then, I've seen people go out of there way to excuse the appalling behaviour: "he must have been under immense pressure to have snapped like that" etc etc ...

There are people who's whole existence seems based on manipulating others and getting away with it. My rule of thumb is "if someone is too good to be true, then they almost certainly are NOT true"!

This is a HUGE subject and it annoys me that those psychologists who strive to use AS to blame relationship breakdowns, such as the Cassandra Syndrome, while seemingly oblivious to who is *really* causing the problems. If someone is trying to 'sell you something' would they come across as socially awkward, rough round the edges, something odd about them, or will they appear charming and sympathetic?



Your intensity is understandable. You mustn't blame yourself for what happened as we do not control the machinations of others who are up to no good and whose lifes work is to conceal their intentions.

I have this as well. I have animal instincts, strong intuition, can read body language well (almost too well now, sucked at it as a kid though), and can apply logic and reasoning to situations really well. I think some of this is from hypersensitivity and the way we process information. The intuition part everyone has, but most never develop it...mine came natural.

There was a guy I used to work with I was suspicious of because he reminded me of a child molester. I was almost correct. While there was no evidence he molested children, he was arrested for downloading child porn.