People are angry at me because I contradict them?
There's being right, and there's letting other people know you're right when they get it wrong. One may possibly get you friends but the other will not. Sometimes needing others to know you're right (or they're wrong) is just not worth it. I try to limit my correcting people to information that's being asked about or is needed for a task at hand now. Wanting to correct or make sure things are right can make for a very Pyrrhic victory on the social battleground so I pick my fights more carefully now.
People just don't like it when they feel they're constantly being told they're wrong, it's happened to me often enough thanks to the AS issues that I try to not be that person to them. Even if I think believing in the healing power of crystals and the 'cleansing nanotechnology particle wave' they (I'm told, by idiots) use is completely idiotic and the explanations are outright abusing and mutilating beyond recognition every scientific term used in them.
See... that part I bolded is the bit that confuses me about the whole thing. I often point out when something's inaccurate, but I totally don't mean it as picking a fight. And even on here people take it as "anger" when it's not even close. It's not about winning, or victory, or any of the ideas that most people put onto it.
_________________
"In my world it's a place of patterns and feel. In my world it's a haven for what is real. It's my world, nobody can steal it, but people like me, we live in the shadows." -Donna Williams
Remember you're dealing with very emotional beings. Not that we're not, but we tend to lean more towards factual than emotional in many ways. But with NTs the general rule is that if you correct someone it's like hitting dislike on their Facebook comment if it makes any more sense. People aren't reading that the dislike button means to you: 'you got the year wrong but the rest was spot on' they're just reading 'X doesn't like what I say (and thus implied: does not like me)'. You may not mean it that way, but if they interpret it that way that's what it is to them. So since most conversations aren't just a back and forth trivia quiz where the person with the most right answers wins you're pretty much doomed if you keep correcting people all the time just because of that general perception. A lot of the time they will start to wonder why they're bothering to even talk to someone who always makes them feel like everything they say is wrong and who always seems to try to make them feel stupid (sound familiar to anyone else?*).
Even if that's not what you intended, that's what a lot of the time people will take from it. You can argue that they shouldn't think that but instead be more rational and focus on facts over emotions, but well, you can spend your entire life trying to make everyone you expect to talk to think the right way you know to be correct and, yeah, that never seems to work out well. I tried, just made life needlessly harder. Heh, that's what I mean by picking your fights, I don't mean that I perceive my correcting as me picking a fight, but I know it will be perceived that way. There's nothing I can really do to change that perception except on a very limited individual basis, but I can change my doing it at times when nothing is gained by doing it and I can gain greater skill in doing it more diplomatically when it is something important.
I see NTs in one of my hobbies who do it and people don't like them, I mean I'm considered likable, nice and social compared to them! That's how bad an impression their inability to let anything just be has made, that I the Aspie am considered pretty normal and fun and getting invited to stuff those NTs aren't just because the others don't want to deal with what they see as the constant negativity draining the fun out of the group. And I'm hardly a lovely little ray of sunshine and happiness so that's saying something!
*I should clarify here to avoid any unintended tones of hostility. I mean that's what the impression I've gotten from a lot of conversations with people who thought they were helping me but weren't aware of the AS or had no ability or desire to understand what it meant and why it meant I couldn't do certain things as they expected. They meant well, but everything they said and did made me want to not be around them because it seemed I could do absolutely nothing right according to them and it made me feel awful just to be around them. They probably didn't mean it that way, but that's how they made me feel and that's why removed myself from their company. I couldn't just turn myself into an NT and they would not change. So I wrote them off as they were simply too toxic to my well being.
You do need to know your audience. Some people simply hate to be corrected; never correct this sort of person, unless you have no choice. If you are having a casual conversation, don't correct small details. It really does not matter anyway.
That's great advice Yensid! I am as what you would call "a neurotypical" and have gotten irritated with supposedly general conversations with Aspies that end up going in circles because I wasn't precise with the way I said things (i.e. the person would take one word out of my conversation and take it so literally), thus, leading down another heated conversation which really leads to .... nowhere. What's left of the interaction are two people who are just annoyed with eachother when all I wanted to do was get the main idea across. So, don't focus too much on the small details of the conversation, just try and understand the gist of the message and go from there. People will be less annoyed. Hope that helps.

But... what do you talk about, if you can't talk about facts?
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I'm not saying that you can't talk about facts...you absolutely can, but don't let that be the whole focus of the conversation because then you lose sight of what real conversation is about...and that is (if you intend to have them as friends) a social connection. Try seeing things from their point of view...but if that's difficult, then ask them questions to clarify so that it will help you understand them better.
There is so much wrong with the world and peoples thinking, they are being incorrectly programmed constantly by media and government. Lies lies lies...NT's struggle to discern truth, and are predisposed to accepting societal norms and conventions. Aspies are like a conscience that tears at their soul
they: the medical system is working well and is caring for the people
me: actually big pharma has a vested interest in keeping people unwell...revolving door medicine....
Last edited by Surfman on 08 Mar 2011, 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing. NT conversations consist entirely of innuendo.
That advice doesn't really help her make better conversation. The art of effective communication is important for everyone - neurotypical or not.
Nothing. NT conversations consist entirely of innuendo.
That advice doesn't really help her make better conversation. The art of effective communication is important for everyone - neurotypical or not.
I think we may have different definitions of what constitutes "better" conversation.
So . . . a "real" conversation is about unimportant things which are stated inaccurately? Again, I think we are using different dictionaries. When I think of a "real" conversation, I think about the time a friend from Latvia and I compared, over a bottle of Stoli, our recollections of how our respective governments propagandized us during the Cold War, which led to a discussion (yes, with citations!) regarding the winnability of Nuclear War, and then to a philosophical conversation re: what constitutes an appropriate use of propaganda by a government, and when it is inappropriate and unethical.
To me, that was a lot more "real" than the meaningless small talk that one must endure at a typical party.
Nothing. NT conversations consist entirely of innuendo.
That advice doesn't really help her make better conversation. The art of effective communication is important for everyone - neurotypical or not.
I think we may have different definitions of what constitutes "better" conversation.
So . . . a "real" conversation is about unimportant things which are stated inaccurately? Again, I think we are using different dictionaries. When I think of a "real" conversation, I think about the time a friend from Latvia and I compared, over a bottle of Stoli, our recollections of how our respective governments propagandized us during the Cold War, which led to a discussion (yes, with citations!) regarding the winnability of Nuclear War, and then to a philosophical conversation re: what constitutes an appropriate use of propaganda by a government, and when it is inappropriate and unethical.
To me, that was a lot more "real" than the meaningless small talk that one must endure at a typical party.
Yes, you're right. We are using different "dictionaries". And I think it's great that you and your friend were having an intense discussion about governments, wars, etc. etc. and it seemed more "real" to you than party talk (which to me, can also be meaningless at times as well). The point I'm getting across here it isn't helpful to constantly talk about facts, and correct people when they slip up on a word or two because it's not helpful in most social situations when having a general discussion. When you start these little passive aggressive attacks (i.e. criticisms), you're going to come off as "arrogant". Most people are going to react negatively. That's just the way it is.
Nothing. NT conversations consist entirely of innuendo.
Most of my conversations are with nonautistic people, because most of my conversations are with support staff(*) and at present none of those are autistic. (I've had autistic people work in that position before, but none right now.) And I can assure you that is not even remotely true, and not just because they have training in dealing with autistic people (that'd be presuming the human service system actually bothered to train people in that regard, and for the most part they don't). I do have autism-related problems in conversations with them sometimes, but none of them are because they don't talk about facts.
(*) Most of the people in general that I interact with are DD of some kind or another, but most of my actual conversations are with support staff because I don't get out much and when I do I'm often on the sidelines of the interactions.
_________________
"In my world it's a place of patterns and feel. In my world it's a haven for what is real. It's my world, nobody can steal it, but people like me, we live in the shadows." -Donna Williams
You do need to know your audience. Some people simply hate to be corrected; never correct this sort of person, unless you have no choice. If you are having a casual conversation, don't correct small details. It really does not matter anyway.
That's great advice Yensid! I am as what you would call "a neurotypical" and have gotten irritated with supposedly general conversations with Aspies that end up going in circles because I wasn't precise with the way I said things (i.e. the person would take one word out of my conversation and take it so literally), thus, leading down another heated conversation which really leads to .... nowhere. What's left of the interaction are two people who are just annoyed with eachother when all I wanted to do was get the main idea across. So, don't focus too much on the small details of the conversation, just try and understand the gist of the message and go from there. People will be less annoyed. Hope that helps.

Oddly enough I often get into those exact same problems with other autistic people. Because I have language issues that people who are hyper-precise about language don't have, and that makes my language imprecise in areas that are different both from the hyper-precise sort of autistic people, and from nonautistic people. And when it becomes a conversation about precision of language rather than about anything real, it sometimes makes me want to give up and not use language at all (and you'll note me saying as much occasionally on the forum when especially frustrated).
Usually when I end up correcting people, it's not that kind of situation at all. As in, it's not just about the words used, it's about something different that I don't even know how to define. (Of course I do have very serious language comprehension issues that can lead to misunderstandings, but that's a whole different area of problems, and the comprehension issues go much deeper than taking words literally (although that can happen too). My ability to express myself in words, at my best anyway, is way way way ahead of my comprehension. A lot of people don't understand that, or forget it even if they do understand, and therefore have unrealistic expectations of what I'll be able to understand, and that can cause a lot of problems. Most days in person, for routine interactions anyway, I am literally relying 95%-100% on a person's actions, and only climb up to words as a last resort.)
I have a friend who is the hyper-verbal hyper-rational sort of person, and it clashes so thoroughly with my way of processing the world that things get agitated between us at least once or twice for every hour we interact. I had a really difficult interaction with him recently, where he kept trying to analyze things to such a level that my head started spinning and I had to tell him to stop it because I was having trouble telling which way was up. And it was exactly as you described, things kept going in circles. And with my other friends, that sort of thing rarely happens. And if it does happen, we stop it as soon as we see it happening. And then we move on. This guy on the other hand has to analyze why it goes wrong. Not just why, but precisely why. In enormous amounts of detail. Going back to the exact moment one of us got agitated and dissecting our every move. It literally makes my head hurt. It's way easier for me to just say "Okay this is going nowhere" and drop it (regardless of what side I'm on) than it is for me to analyze the thing to death.
The situations that get me into trouble rarely work like that though. It's less about being hyper-verbal and pedantic, and more about thinking that I'm just adding more facts into the discussion. I rarely even view it at the time as correcting them. It's not about crossing out what they do and adding my own ideas in its place, it's more about simply adding my own ideas into the discussion and seeing where it goes. There's usually no anger or irritation towards the other person at all, neither obvious nor hidden. It's only in retrospect that I can even tell I would be perceived as doing any of that.
Other times, it's something that's really important to me, and I do say something on the order of "Hey, what you're saying, it doesn't match up with how things work." But even then, there's rarely any irritation or anger involved in what I'm saying. No desire to see the person hurt in any way. Sometimes, when I'm actually aware how it could be taken, I go out of my way to say "Hey, this is totally not personal, but I feel like I need to say this because it's {something really important to me / something that affects people in the real world when people believe things like that / etc.}." But that rarely works either.
One thing I've noticed is that nonautistic people get away with these things more often than I do. I do get away with these things most of the time, it seems to be a minority of people who perceive hostility in what I'm saying. But boy when they do perceive hostility, you should see how hostile they get in return, often escalating things no matter how profusely and sincerely I apologize. Whereas when I watch nonautistic people in these situations, they can often say the exact same thing I did, sometimes to that same person who became so hostile in response to me, and they can get away with it. My only guess has been that there's a particular set of signals people send out to signal they're "nice people", and that people who send out those signals can get away even with a shocking degree of true crueltty (as well as getting away with all the things I can't get away with), whereas I don't send those signals and often can't get away with things that have no cruelty attached at all. It's weird.
_________________
"In my world it's a place of patterns and feel. In my world it's a haven for what is real. It's my world, nobody can steal it, but people like me, we live in the shadows." -Donna Williams
Verdandi
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Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 55
Gender: Female
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Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
For many reasons, I really needed to read that right now. It's made several things "click into place" for me all at once. I've had some online social drama directed at me, to the point where my actions are characterized in negative ways that seem to match how people are treating me and talking about me. I mean, people are saying that my behavior indicates certain negative things are true about me because they can know my true intentions and thoughts behind those actions, while I am confused about what I really meant and can't possibly know without someone else to interpret my actions for me. However, their behavior toward me is actually somewhat explicitly what they say I'm doing implicitly - that is, they are trying to manipulate me into accepting a falsehood about myself as true (whether or not they believe this falsehood), and they expect me to support this falsehood to the point of insisting that I should put time and energy into it and waste my therapy on it, when there is nothing of the sort to be found.
I think one of those centrally involved in this does his best to portray himself as a "nice person," such as suggest at strategic moments that it's wrong to stigmatize people for mental illness, or that his goal in life is to help people (he's studying psychiatry), but at the same time I can see that he is being manipulative and nasty toward other people, having said when he didn't realize others might see later that autistic people are not really people and rather forceful attempts to convince me that I am wrong about everything about myself and that I need to listen to what he has to say because only he is rational and educated enough to interpret my life, whereas I myself am too emotional and too invested in particular diagnoses to be properly objective and cannot possibly understand what is going on. But no one seems to notice his behavior, and when I point it out, it's suggested he must really have benign reasons and that I just misunderstand his high pressure attempts to sell me his version of my reality.
This has been in the recent past, and I've probably referenced these same people in other ways, but this particular person has been on my mind a lot because of the downright unethical ways in which he's tried to convince me to interfere in my own mental health care, and his apparent belief that I am unable to see what he's doing. I've already seen him manipulate someone else (who is diagnosed with borderline personality disorder) into a full-blown ... I'm not sure what to call it, but there was a lot of anger and drama involved ... while claiming to be compassionate toward her situation, and yet no one else even acknowledges his role in what happened.
This is relevant to this thread as a lot of the trouble I've been catching is based on a couple of people (including the guy I mentioned above) interpreting my actions in a particular context and circulating this information for the past two months or more to continue compounding the impression that their perceptions of my actions are far more accurate than anything I may report about my actions (but never actually allowing me to clarify my actions, by keeping these rumors hidden). Further, the nature of these rumors is such that any denial or explanation on my part is seen to reinforce and confirm what they have been saying about me. It is also relevant because the starting point for these rumors was when something I said was misunderstood, I tried to clarify it, and was then characterized as deeply defensive because according to them, they had seen my true motives and I wanted to hide them.
Everything I say or do is interpreted as having nothing but subtext that I personally cannot even see. What you said about giving off the signals of a nice person while doing cruel things is one element that I've been trying to properly put into words. Further, I've seen others in this same social group do exactly the same things I have done, down to using the exact same phrases in the same situations, and no one comments or seems to even realize.
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