Something you guys should know (savant skills)

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I think the "under 2 seconds" part is key. That tells me that this isn't a math trick that comes from obsessive study of calender pattern calculation. For it to be that fast, it needs to be done subconsciously. Conscious calculation is just too slow, even if you have discovered a wonderful algorithm.

A while back in another thread somebody was calling the NT ability to subconsciously and immediately read body language a "savant skill". Thus ensued a debate over the definition of savant. The common definition is a subconscious skill that is rare. The subconsciousness is what differentiates it from practiced expertise (learning a calender algorithm). But he brought up a good point. If you must study and practice reading body language while others just "read" it with no conscious calculation at all, they will seem to have a savant skill even if it technically isn't because it's a common skill.

Perhaps the reason savant skills show up more often with autism is that it's normal for a human brain to be able to subconsciously read patterns without having gained conscious learned expertise and the difference is just which skills this applies to in a particular person. It seems shocking when a human brain can make calendar calculations in 2 seconds but ordinary when a different human brain can make body language calculations just as fast. Perhaps the only real difference is which subconscious calculations a particular brain is wired to make.

Can a person learn to make conscious calculations very, very quickly through the use of algorithms? Yes. Doing it for calendar calculation has been discussed in this thread and doing it for reading body language gets discussed in lots of other threads. But a conscious calculation, however expert and perfectly algorithmed, is never going to be as fast as an unconscious calculation. So I don't think it's a matter of these calender calculating savants (or whatever the skill) studying it very, very intently. That makes an expert but I don't think it makes a savant. I really think it's wiring. But in a weird way, we all have this wiring. It's just that it gets used for different unconscious calculations in different people. And so far nobody has figured out a way to tap into what really is a ubiquitous cognitive power so that people can choose to "add on" a subconscious calculation, even though the researchers do say it should be theoretically possible.

This was a great post too. I was imagining what it would be like if if the AS/NT ratio in of the general population were reversed, would NTs seem like mind readers? Wouldn't the ability to read body language intuitively be an extraordinary skill in an AS world?

No, because NTs are useless at reading autistic body language.

I think that NTs suck at reading autistics because they apply NT theory of mind to autistics, and this leads to the wrong conclusions of what certain body language means in terms of states of mind.

Background: Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD), including Asperger syndrome and autism, is a highly genetic neurodevelopmental disorder. There is a consensus that ASD has a biological basis, and it has been proposed that it is a “connectivity” disorder. Diffusion Tensor Magnetic Resonance Imaging (DT-MRI) allows measurement of the microstructural integrity of white matter (a proxy measure of “connectivity”). However, nobody has investigated the microstructural integrity of whole brain white matter in people with Asperger syndrome. Methods: We measured the fractional anisotropy (FA), mean diffusivity (MD) and radial diffusivity (RD) of white matter, using DT-MRI, in 13 adults with Asperger syndrome and 13 controls. The groups did not differ significantly in overall intelligence and age. FA, MD and RD were assessed using whole brain voxel-based techniques. Results: Adults with Asperger syndrome had a significantly lower FA than controls in 13 clusters. These were largely bilateral and included white matter in the internal capsule, frontal, temporal, parietal and occipital lobes, cingulum and corpus callosum. Conclusions: Adults with Asperger syndrome have widespread significant differences from controls in white matter microstructural integrity.

I took an IQ test when I was in highschool. I am not going to give my exact IQ because I don't see it to very relevant. However, I did do very well in working memory (top 2%). I also did pretty well in the block design subsection. Apparently all my tetris skills had paid off.

In highschool I became fascinated with multiplying large numbers in my head. I could multiply 8 digit numbers if I was given sufficient time (about an hour or so). I see this as an act of extreme patience and stubbornness combined with some innate working memory ability which may be indicative of Asperger's.

I am not a savant though. A true savant would be able to multiply those numbers in less than a minute. They would do it without being able to explain the cognitive processes behind it. To me that is what true genius is. To just "see" the answer without having an explainable process behind it.

This is EXACTLY how I failed 7th grade math (Algebra). I didn't know how to do the work, I could only provide the answers. It seemed to work with any equation presented to me. I just looked at a problem, and could write the answer. My wretch of a teacher traumatized me about it so horribly though, after a suicide attempt, and refusal to return to school, subsequent homeschooling...I never could do it again consistently. I'm still good at math and once in a blue moon I can just know the answer, sometimes to even rather complex equations. But if this is a splinter skill, then mine got damaged, and doesn't work right any more.

OK Ojani thanks for this post because now I see where I didn't make this clear enough and people are getting the wrong impression. If you look up to where you quoted me I've bolded the words "investigating skills". I should have done a much better job of clarifying this. The 1 SD/2 SD criteria is not how savant was defined. This criteria was only used to select the sample of people. In other words, of the people who scored the '1 SD/2 SD' 25% had at least 1 'splinter skill'. The only purpose of the subtests was for the selection of the people to be investigated. Parent reported skills were the other criteria for inclusion in the study. They had to use these criteria for inclusion to keep the study from being unwieldy. This criteria for cognitive skills would preclude people with an FSIQ of 140+ (the 2 SD personal subtest score) because that in itself is considered unusual and it sets a floor of 13 on any subtest (the 1 SD from norm). Furthermore, they weren't looking to match any particular subtest with a particular skill, they were only looking for unusual deviation.

In your own case your scores do not mean you can't have savant skills, it just means you wouldn't have been included in the study unless you fell in the category of parent reported skills. My original post was meant to point out highlights to look for in the study. In hindsight I shouldn't have expected people to listen to the linked audio presentation, let alone read the actual study.

I like what you wrote here. --->

This is EXACTLY how I failed 7th grade math (Algebra). I didn't know how to do the work, I could only provide the answers. It seemed to work with any equation presented to me. I just looked at a problem, and could write the answer. My wretch of a teacher traumatized me about it so horribly though, after a suicide attempt, and refusal to return to school, subsequent homeschooling...I never could do it again consistently. I'm still good at math and once in a blue moon I can just know the answer, sometimes to even rather complex equations. But if this is a splinter skill, then mine got damaged, and doesn't work right any more.

OJani wrote:

Think of this. When I have to add two numbers I often don't add them algorithmically. Say, what's 29 + 73? I almost instantly see 102 as "30 less 1 plus 70 plus 3 equals 100 plus 3 minus 1 -> 102" (30 + 70 is on the same picture as 100). Ok, it's a simple example, I can deal with slightly more difficult ones in my head the same way. I also could figure out simple equations in elementary school before actually solving them, so why bother with solving? I couldn't do division in writing "properly" when we learned it because some part of it I always did in my head.

So, I guess some hidden visual skills may be in the background of savant sills, not actually algorithms, somewhat similarly to chess players, who don't calculate algorithms like chess-computers do. Instead, they store a myriad of visuo-symbolic pictures in their minds.

All-in-all I often had the feeling in my life that I had to do / learn / solve things differently than others did, I didn't know why.

A totally different 'savantism' might be achieved by practicing senses, like for example hearing. I am a fun of hi-fi / high-end gears and have some experience with modifying them, so I can hear as little change in the sound as adding one small condenser does, be it only 5pF, one of the smallest ceramic type. It's a less spectacular skill, though.

There is no doubt in my mind that visual skills, even for those who are blind, play a significant role in savant syndrome.

TheSunAlsoRises

http://www.theleader.com.au/news/local/news/general/trivia-whiz-has-bold-radio-dream/2563534.aspx

I thought this article was interesting simply because of the nature of this gentleman's savant skill.

I think people basically associate savant skills with four domains: Math, Art, Music and Spatial skills noting THAT good to excellent memory ( for subject(s) of interest) is present. In addition, excellent memory used for autobiographical events( remembering what happens in one's life in detail over a period of time and/or on particular days) to the regurgitation of vast amounts of information from books and television shows are considered savant skills..

Reports suggest THAT a savant skill(s) exist in 10% percent of the Autism population.

I propose THAT a larger number of people across the spectrum have what is termed a savant skill. I believe such skills are disregarded in a number of Autists because society deems these abilities as irrelevant. I also propose THAT such isolated skills are part of a unique cognitive style found primarily in Autistics BUT blends over into the non-Autistic population.


TheSunAlsoRises

http://www.theleader.com.au/news/local/news/general/trivia-whiz-has-bold-radio-dream/2563534.aspx

I thought this article was interesting simply because of the nature of this gentleman's savant skill.

I think people basically associate savant skills with four domains: Math, Art, Music and Spatial skills noting THAT good to excellent memory ( for subject(s) of interest) is present. In addition, excellent memory used for autobiographical events( remembering what happens in one's life in detail over a period of time and/or on particular days) to the regurgitation of vast amounts of information from books and television shows are considered savant skills..

Reports suggest THAT a savant skill(s) exist in 10% percent of the Autism population.

I propose THAT a larger number of people across the spectrum have what is termed a savant skill. I believe such skills are disregarded in a number of Autists because society deems these abilities as irrelevant. I also propose THAT such isolated skills are part of a unique cognitive style found primarily in Autistics BUT blends over into the non-Autistic population.


TheSunAlsoRises