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kx250rider
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21 May 2012, 10:56 am

In reading your description, I don't think your employee has Asperger's alone, and maybe not at all. It sounds more to me like a case of borderline personality disorder. In particular, the poor response to criticism, and the ease in social situations, and above all, the "I'm right, and I know it" attitude. Those are very consistent with BPD, and not much (if at all) with the Autism/Asperger's scenario. And although I have been debated on this, I don't think Asperger's people have a lying problem. Usually we tell too much of the truth, and get ourselves into trouble by hurting someone's feelings where a white lie would have been suitable (as in a wife asking "do you think I got fat?"), etc.

The bottom line is that with or without Asperger's or BPD or any other label, an employee either is or is not a good asset to a company. That's what I'd use to decide whether to keep or dismiss that person. If it's a legal issue, and you're fearful that firing them will result in an Americans with Disabilities lawsuit, I'd say check with a lawyer, but it sounds like you have plenty of cause to let that person go, if they're lying, and if they're disrupting company progress. I would be singing a different tune for you if you were saying that the employee is complaining about weird lighting in the office causing nervousness, or that the bathroom is smelly, or that there is a repetitive noise which is causing the employee to do poorly. THOSE would be legitimate Asperger's employee concerns.

Charles



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21 May 2012, 11:18 am

After being on this forum for years, I have been seeing here and elsewhere that aspies do tend to think they are right and not wrong and even some have admitted they are always right and other people are wrong. Is that a BPD trait they have? :?



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21 May 2012, 1:49 pm

Tony Attwood's book "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" addresses denial, arrogance and coping with mistakes on pages 26, 27 and 238, 23 of the hardcover edition.



ictus75
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21 May 2012, 1:58 pm

Asking if someone has Aspergers on an internet forum is rather like people who look up symptoms they have on the web and then are convinced they have cancer or something.

People can be difficult to deal with, have know-it-all personalities, or even be complete dick-heads without having Aspergers. It seems too easy today for people to say, "This person is rather difficult to deal with, perhaps they have Aspergers." Yes, your employee has some symptoms of AS, but so do most of the general population. Coming to terms with an AS diagnosis is much deeper than just looking at surface symptoms.

The opposite can also be true, with a person having complete, full blown AS, yet being able to function at a normal job because they can mask their AS and mirror their workmates behavior.

Nothing is ever as simple as it may seem. Truth is a sliding floor…


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21 May 2012, 3:24 pm

Wondering81 wrote:
. . Other people have actually described her as narcissistic. And in a way she is, (the way she always behaves as she is always right, and that she knows everything).
But she is also very helpful and emphatical. If someone is not feeling well at work, she will be mothering them. She remembers everybody's birthday, and always brings a little something along for that person. She is actually a very generous person, which is one of the reasons I have kept her despite the problems.

I read in a book about asperger that some people with Asperger might get a superiority complex as a way to cope with the fact that people might treat them badly. . .

I feel some of this. I have patchy skills. And so, when someone criticizes me on a deficiency, it can feel very unfair. What about my good points, I want to say. Many of my good points precisely come from what can be viewed as deficiencies, that it is very much two sides of one coin.

Okay, in a business setting, the company hierarchy can preach the important of customer service. But when it comes down to it, they just treat customers blandly as if they're counters (all the same). They don't really engage with customers. They don't really spend the energy and acknowledge what's involved. More like they want the reports on time and don't really care about the rest, as if they're burned out, no longer interested in the business, just going through the motions.

I realize that's somewhat unfair and inaccurate. And the reports are important, too. But it's acceptable for a report to occasionally be late in a way that disengaged and sloppy customer service is not, or this latter is more costly but harder to measure.

Yes, it can be hurt to be criticized. It can feel like someone is trying to put me into a small box. Or someone is trying to get me to say that I am a defective human being.



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21 May 2012, 3:51 pm

Wondering81 wrote:
AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
I'm self-diagnosed that I have Asperger's, I've worked sales, and I've done well.

I tend to have an A game and a C game and not too much of a B game.

I agree with the above that trying to convince someone they have Asperger's may not be the highest probability approach.

Maybe you could sell her on the analogy that a veteran, seasoned baseball pitcher learns to win when he doesn't have his best stuff. That is, he learns to win with his B game.


Hm, some cultural references I apparently don't have :oops:
What is an A, B and C game?
or a pitcher and his stuff?

In baseball, maybe the pitcher does not have his 98 mph fastball. So, he finds a way to win with his 90 mph offspeed pitch with movement.

In business, maybe I'm tired, so I act a little bit more deliberately on tasks, and when I get a customer I stay a little bit more in the here and now with my customer (and thus, in a sense, may be better). When I have a lot of energy, I'm a good planner and multi-tasker.



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21 May 2012, 7:49 pm

Wondering81 wrote:

"Now, as far as coaching me, these are some things that might help:
This is not necessarily the only important fact.
Context also matters, the broader context of what else is happening with the patient and also the broader social context
"

Exactly - she seems to have problems making a hierarchy of what is most important and what is not. This relates both to facts and to work assignments.
I would love to get some more examples on how to cope with this, ways to tell her in a way that she feels is not belittling her, and makes her actually take it to heart!

As a way of going at it obliquely, maybe Myer-Briggs? I don't know a great deal about it, but some of our members here have reported scoring INTJ, and I think one or two people have reported scoring something else. What I like about Myer-Briggs is that 'normal' is expanded to sixteen types, none of which is a majority! :bigsmurf: Of course, she or anyone else might have the same objection, of not wishing to be put into a box.

Do you think this employee might respond to a management technique of shorter, more frequent feedback? Might be less total time on your part but more frequent interruptions and you'd have to decide whether it's worth it.



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21 May 2012, 8:32 pm

SpiritBlooms wrote:
Wondering81 wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
Why worry so much about whether she has it or not? You seem to have a good handle on what her strengths and weaknesses are for the job. Isn't that enough information? It's not really anyone's business but hers whether she has AS if she doesn't feel a need to share that information.


I think she has decided that she does not have Asperger.
It is, however, quite difficult to accept all her whims if there is no good medical explanation to them.
People wonder why she is still hired, and sometimes, I do too.
The problem is that she seems to not see herself that her social skills are lacking. I have read how some people with Asperger make deals with their coworkers about "cue words", so that they understand that they should end the conversation, or listen to what the customer is actually interested in, etc. After I understood that it might be Asperger, I no longer try to intervene in the conversation with hinting, when I hear that she is does not take the cues from the customer (or even direct opposition from the customers sometimes, when they tell her in a direct way what they want, but she has decided they need something else). I now try to find some other important chores back-office and ask her to do those instead, making her feel important and accept to let someone else take over the customer / let the customer leave. But this cannot continue - we need a way to tell her (without the customer knowing) that she is doing something wrong. But then she has to accept that she actually does something wrong as well.

Also, that would give her a much better economical protection. I am uncertain about how long I am able to keep her. I hate the thought of letting her go, both because of her many positive qualities, and her engagement in her work. But also because she will have a though economical situation if we cannot keep her / have to lessen her percentage. With a diagnosis, she would get better support from the government in many ways.

While it is your business whether she does her job correctly, it isn't your business whether she has AS or anything else going on that requires a diagnosis unless she makes it your business. You have to decide whether you can live with her as an employee by giving her tasks she's good at and keeping her away from tasks she doesn't handle well - especially with customers. I wouldn't discuss it with her as a medical/psychiatric issue - which you're not qualified to do anyway, but as an employer/employee issue. That's all you can do. Even if someone has a diagnosed disability it doesn't give them the right to a job that their disability prevents them from doing. It only gives them the right to equal consideration for jobs they are capable of.


I see your point, but at the same time, I actually do see it as my business to get the most out of the company's human resources. She is at times an exceptional seller, and she is very dedicated to her work. It would thus be a shame to let her go. At the same time, things cannot continue the way they do. With a diagnosis I am hoping to accomplish the following:
1. Make her aware of her own shortcomings and need for guidance
2. Make her coworkers more tolerant. They are already well acquainted with the symptoms, imagine how it might lessen their frustration
3. Give her the possibility to work part time if she wants to, with minimal reduction of her income, thus hopefully see a reduction in her stress level and fewer meltdowns. (Since she would be able to get a disability allowance for the other percentage.)
4. It is actually my legal duty as a supervisor to facilitate my employees' work situation. Had I suspected a visual or auditory impairment, it would have been unlawful for me not to help my employee get tested if she had not thought about this herself, thus being able to adjust her work situation according to her situation. Here, the social interaction is the problem, and I am trying to see if there is any way this can be ameliorated.

As a fellow human being, I also think it is sad to see her struggle, knowing that the same issues we have with her at work, negatively affects her personal life as well.



Wondering81
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21 May 2012, 9:31 pm

justkillingtime wrote:
Tony Attwood's book "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome" addresses denial, arrogance and coping with mistakes on pages 26, 27 and 238, 23 of the hardcover edition.


:idea: Just downloaded the book, and this is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Thank you so much!

"Denial and arrogance" can even be found in
the Amazon-preview (close to the end)

This is a very good description of how I perceive my employee.

And page 238 gives some good advice on how to help.

I will reply to the other posts this evening, as for now, I need to spend some quality time with my Kindle :)



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22 May 2012, 11:56 am

Wondering81 wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
Wondering81 wrote:
SpiritBlooms wrote:
Why worry so much about whether she has it or not? You seem to have a good handle on what her strengths and weaknesses are for the job. Isn't that enough information? It's not really anyone's business but hers whether she has AS if she doesn't feel a need to share that information.


I think she has decided that she does not have Asperger.
It is, however, quite difficult to accept all her whims if there is no good medical explanation to them.
People wonder why she is still hired, and sometimes, I do too.
The problem is that she seems to not see herself that her social skills are lacking. I have read how some people with Asperger make deals with their coworkers about "cue words", so that they understand that they should end the conversation, or listen to what the customer is actually interested in, etc. After I understood that it might be Asperger, I no longer try to intervene in the conversation with hinting, when I hear that she is does not take the cues from the customer (or even direct opposition from the customers sometimes, when they tell her in a direct way what they want, but she has decided they need something else). I now try to find some other important chores back-office and ask her to do those instead, making her feel important and accept to let someone else take over the customer / let the customer leave. But this cannot continue - we need a way to tell her (without the customer knowing) that she is doing something wrong. But then she has to accept that she actually does something wrong as well.

Also, that would give her a much better economical protection. I am uncertain about how long I am able to keep her. I hate the thought of letting her go, both because of her many positive qualities, and her engagement in her work. But also because she will have a though economical situation if we cannot keep her / have to lessen her percentage. With a diagnosis, she would get better support from the government in many ways.

While it is your business whether she does her job correctly, it isn't your business whether she has AS or anything else going on that requires a diagnosis unless she makes it your business. You have to decide whether you can live with her as an employee by giving her tasks she's good at and keeping her away from tasks she doesn't handle well - especially with customers. I wouldn't discuss it with her as a medical/psychiatric issue - which you're not qualified to do anyway, but as an employer/employee issue. That's all you can do. Even if someone has a diagnosed disability it doesn't give them the right to a job that their disability prevents them from doing. It only gives them the right to equal consideration for jobs they are capable of.


I see your point, but at the same time, I actually do see it as my business to get the most out of the company's human resources. She is at times an exceptional seller, and she is very dedicated to her work. It would thus be a shame to let her go. At the same time, things cannot continue the way they do. With a diagnosis I am hoping to accomplish the following:
1. Make her aware of her own shortcomings and need for guidance
2. Make her coworkers more tolerant. They are already well acquainted with the symptoms, imagine how it might lessen their frustration
3. Give her the possibility to work part time if she wants to, with minimal reduction of her income, thus hopefully see a reduction in her stress level and fewer meltdowns. (Since she would be able to get a disability allowance for the other percentage.)
4. It is actually my legal duty as a supervisor to facilitate my employees' work situation. Had I suspected a visual or auditory impairment, it would have been unlawful for me not to help my employee get tested if she had not thought about this herself, thus being able to adjust her work situation according to her situation. Here, the social interaction is the problem, and I am trying to see if there is any way this can be ameliorated.

As a fellow human being, I also think it is sad to see her struggle, knowing that the same issues we have with her at work, negatively affects her personal life as well.


Great. Except ... YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DIAGNOSE HER.