Female-To-Male Transsexual People Have More Autistic Traits,

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zemanski
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14 Feb 2013, 5:27 am

Sexuality and gender is a very complex and emotive subject, whether it's trans or some other area.

As I see it, sexuality and gender has it's own spectrum and each person needs to find their place on it - someone may be happy with heterosexuality and not understand the strength of feeling of people who aren't happy in that place on the spectrum, or you may find yourself so unhappy you can't face life with the body you were born with. It is natural to want to understand and ask questions - wouldn't we all like NTs to find autism so interesting that they wanted to know all the details from our perspective so they begin to understand the ins and outs from our side?

But equally, when you are constantly battered by society's negative judgement on you because you have made a decision to go ahead with something you feel so strongly you have to do, it is absolutely natural to feel defensive about that - especially as most of the heterosexual population still thinks it's a "choice" even to be gay and has absolutely no concept of the emotional pain that can result if you try to live in the wrong body. Given that the lesbian and gay communities have had a patchy past in terms of intolerance of bi and trans and largely excluded both groups until quite recently, it's not surprising that trans people find it difficult to feel safe when people start to ask questions.

My feeling is that every person presents differently and the role of the physical body and emotional response to it is different in each - some have to go through reassignment for their own sanity, some don't feel that pressure but still feel they are male and can live with that without the physical change being necessary, some, like me (I'm not saying I'm trans, I just have a different view of my own morphology), are ambivalent towards their body - mine catches me by surprise quite often, I don't think of it as female because I don't think of me as female (or male) but sometimes I'm confronted with it and am honestly shocked for a few moments while I remember that it's the body I live in.



nessa238
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14 Feb 2013, 5:28 am

Verdandi wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
I've been asking transgender people questions on this thread and a question in one post still remains to be answered as in my opinion this is a highly emotive issue and certain questions make people very defensive as they sense their thinking on the subject is being questioned and they do not want to subject their thoughts to rational debate, which I think says a lot. It seems to me that there is no one set response to feeling as if your brain is in the wrong body, as has been demonstrated by responses on this thread. So for any one person to say they talk for the whole trans community/anyone with transgender issues isn't true. They can say how thy personally have dealt with this issue themselves but they cannot speak for anyone else and it is clear that two people at least on this thread have decided to not change gender hence proving that changing gender doesn't have to be the automatic response to feeling this way - just as I suspected.


I wasn't saying that all transgender people have the same feelings. I was saying it is good to fact check before proceeding from an apparent position that such statements are correct. I think Simon Baron-Cohen's theorizing about cognition in general tends to be rather rubbish and what he says about autistic people is no more enlightening.

I did make a comment that it is pointless to question why trans people transition, but there were a handful of comments of that nature in this thread, and it has been my experience that such comments (about any trait) tend to be discouraging (at the very least) for people who meet the criteria for that trait. In the past, I have stopped participating in some online forums because of the way people - primarily men - talked about and discussed women. Or how straight people discussed same sex attractions. What made the difference to me was when others would say "That is not cool." So, when I have the chance and I see certain topics develop, I try to point out when I see something that is "not cool."

I think that not wanting to get into a debate over whether someone is truly the gender they say they are is not particularly indicative of anything, really. It seems to me that not wanting to entertain questions of that nature is fairly normal reaction. I think a discussion about gender and what people associate with being or feeling or thinking about their gender would be a fairly interesting topic, but this thread is not that topic.

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I do not appreciate being painted as some kind of villain for creating a thread on what I think is a very interesting and highly relevant piece of research, that has evidently prompted a number of people on WP to want to talk about their experiences, hence this thread has been useful and furthered peoples' understanding of the condition in my opinion.


I didn't paint you as a villain. I responded to and commented on comments made by Simon Baron-Cohen and Rebecca Jones. I am sorry that you seem to perceive me having a go at you, but I am not. I am sorry if how I wrote my post comes across as having a go at you, because I was trying not to do that.

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One person's experiences or feelings should not be used as a way to shut down debate in my opinion, otherwise a person feeling suicidal about being autistic could go on every autism-related thread on WP and say 'The whole topic of autism makes me feel suicidal - you have all set me off, stop talking about it!' Can you realistically see that happening?


I have not made any argument that "one person's experiences or feelings should be used as a way to shut down debate." I do think that in general, people's genders shouldn't really be up for debate by other people. That is one of many traits that I think is inappropriate to debate. That is, unless you want to debate everyone's gender, including those who are not trans and would never want to transition.

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This behaviour also merely proves to me what I suspected all along as well but I won't say it on here because I am being effectively gagged by an oppressive form of emotional blackmail.


I don't know what it is you suspected all along, or what emotional blackmail you're referring to. If anything I said made you feel emotionally blackmailed, I am sorry. I am not trying to be antagonistic. I know we have had a couple of exchanges on this topic now, and I think I should be clear: I do not think you are acting out of ill will.


It was the other person who tried to shut down the debate - FalsettoTesla

I fail to see how any real understanding of transgenderism can be achieved if people with transgender issues can effectively say 'Stop talking about this you're making me suicidal!' How on earth is anyone going to understand better with that line of reasoning? And I'll tell you another thing - it hardly indicates that the person is in a sufficiently healthy mental state to be making such major decisions about their body either does it? I don't think the decision is made rationally at all - I think it is an excessively emotional response to something that should be dealt with as rationally as possible, as it is such a serious and permanent decision to make. Yes by all means do with your body as you please but make sure you are mentally stable enough beforehand for your own sake in terms of being able to make a rational decision and being able to cope with the massive change it will make to your life.



nessa238
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14 Feb 2013, 5:37 am

zemanski wrote:
Sexuality and gender is a very complex and emotive subject, whether it's trans or some other area.

As I see it, sexuality and gender has it's own spectrum and each person needs to find their place on it - someone may be happy with heterosexuality and not understand the strength of feeling of people who aren't happy in that place on the spectrum, or you may find yourself so unhappy you can't face life with the body you were born with. It is natural to want to understand and ask questions - wouldn't we all like NTs to find autism so interesting that they wanted to know all the details from our perspective so they begin to understand the ins and outs from our side?

But equally, when you are constantly battered by society's negative judgement on you because you have made a decision to go ahead with something you feel so strongly you have to do, it is absolutely natural to feel defensive about that - especially as most of the heterosexual population still thinks it's a "choice" even to be gay and has absolutely no concept of the emotional pain that can result if you try to live in the wrong body. Given that the lesbian and gay communities have had a patchy past in terms of intolerance of bi and trans and largely excluded both groups until quite recently, it's not surprising that trans people find it difficult to feel safe when people start to ask questions.

My feeling is that every person presents differently and the role of the physical body and emotional response to it is different in each - some have to go through reassignment for their own sanity, some don't feel that pressure but still feel they are male and can live with that without the physical change being necessary, some, like me (I'm not saying I'm trans, I just have a different view of my own morphology), are ambivalent towards their body - mine catches me by surprise quite often, I don't think of it as female because I don't think of me as female (or male) but sometimes I'm confronted with it and am honestly shocked for a few moments while I remember that it's the body I live in.


It's the very defensiveness that makes me suspicious though as it indicates to me that the person themself isn't clear in their mind as regards what they want to do and they realise that people could potentially talk them out of their decision and they hate that.

I think if a person fears being influenced away from their decision this is telling them something important.

There has to be an internal battle in the person as to deliberately harm the body is not programmed into people - it's the opposite to self-preservation and this will be fought for in the mind, hence the person is effectively fighting themself to overcome their natural sense of self-preservation.

I don't want to tell anyone what to do, I just think people should be willing and able to discuss how they feel calmly and rationally, to ensure they are doing these things for the right reasons.



zemanski
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14 Feb 2013, 5:45 am

Perhaps a public forum is just a bit too open though - I've had some pretty good conversations with people I know well that I know they wouldn't have felt able to handle in another circumstance or with people they didn't know personally or professionally.

To go through gender reassignment you have to have months of counseling first and the professionals will not agree to it, in the UK at least, unless they feel you are making a reasonable decision and understand the long term consequences.



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14 Feb 2013, 5:55 am

I don't mind having a woman's body (although I dress and act quite "butch"). What I hate are the assumptions people make about me because I have a woman's body. So I don't know what I exactly am. Androgynous? Genderqueer? My aspie friends understand and treat me like a dude. My biological family knows nothing. The anxiety I feel isn't enough to force me to go further with this thing, but one day it probably will be.



nessa238
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14 Feb 2013, 7:09 am

Heidi80 wrote:
I don't mind having a woman's body (although I dress and act quite "butch"). What I hate are the assumptions people make about me because I have a woman's body. So I don't know what I exactly am. Androgynous? Genderqueer? My aspie friends understand and treat me like a dude. My biological family knows nothing. The anxiety I feel isn't enough to force me to go further with this thing, but one day it probably will be.


Do you think you dress and act 'butch' because you feel society has forced you to take on this role because you didn't conform to society's expectations of femininity?

I dress as a woman but not in an overtly sexual manner as I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself but I feel society often doesn't accept me as I'm not 'womanly' enough and it really annoys me, as if I'm being constantly compared to some standard model of femininity and being found failing, as if they think I'm dying to be just like them, but I'm not, I'm ok as I am if it weren't for their bitchy attitudes.



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14 Feb 2013, 7:44 am

If people were transitioning or feeling like they had to because of society's expectation that would only explain people who met society's expectation for their gender.

It's not the case that all women are femme, and are male are masculine, even after transitioning. It's not the case that everyone who transitions even transitions to male or female.

Even with the fact that you are trying to analyse this without actually /asking/ people who do not feel their gender identity matches their AAB sex, or those with gender dysphoria, it simply does not match to have transitioning be because of society's expectations.



Jinks
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14 Feb 2013, 8:25 am

This is a really interesting article. Thank you for posting it. I don't believe anyone here was deliberately being offensive, but it is important to remember that sometimes certain issues are triggering for people. Trans-people who are pre-transition are often particularly sensitive about the issue - it can be very personal. That doesn't mean their behaviour is suspicious.

It is, however, true to say that suggesting that a trans person should adapt their thinking instead of transitioning is the same thing as saying that an autistic person should adapt their thinking to become neurotypical instead of being autistic. They are physical, not mental conditions. I am also FtM. In fact, as someone who is both autistic and transgender and has plenty of adult experience of being both, I can tell you that they are peculiarly similar phenomenon in many ways.

Firstly, as the article (and other studies) have demonstrated, they appear to be related. There is a much higher incidence of transgenderism in the autistic population than in the neurotypical population.

Secondly, no one knows the cause or of a cure, though from the available information both appear to have a physical neurological basis and originate prenatally (the scientific data available supports this in both cases, and likewise in both cases, current theories suggest early hormonal influences are likely to be a factor). And of course, both present in a spectrum of severity.

Thirdly, it is just as difficult to explain how it feels to be a transgender person to someone who is not transgendered as it is for an autistic person to explain to a neurotypical person what being autistic feels like. Without having had the experience, it appears to be something weird, illogical and nebulous, and the resulting behaviours make many "normal" people feel uncomfortable. For this reason, someone who does not experience the same feelings is always going to have trouble understanding it - but it is possible to accept without having to understand.

Fourthly, the effects of the condition show up in as widely different ways as the symptoms of autism do, and as such, when dealing with transgenderism the most important thing is to understand the person and their unique challenges, rather than overlay them with a set of pre-arranged assumptions or a pre-arranged system of treatment - just like with autism. I do think S.B-C's comment demonstrates a lack of understanding of transgenderism in this regard - perhaps it's taken out of context, but he appears to suggest that people who are trans feel that way because of their autism, which is silly. Most transgender people are not autistic.

I transitioned eight years ago, and you might say I am "over it". I don't think about my gender any more, and in fact it's rather strange for me to be reminded that I was ever female, as I'm so used to living my life as a normal man (or as normal as it gets when you are also autistic!). Of course, that was the idea, because before I transitioned I couldn't stop thinking about it - it was painful and uncomfortable.

I perfectly appreciate that it's hard for others to understand, and for me the issue is not a sensitive one any more. Therefore, I am quite happy to answer questions about it, if I can be of assistance.



Last edited by Jinks on 14 Feb 2013, 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Feb 2013, 8:37 am

Verdandi wrote:

I have not made any argument that "one person's experiences or feelings should be used as a way to shut down debate." I do think that in general, people's genders shouldn't really be up for debate by other people. That is one of many traits that I think is inappropriate to debate. That is, unless you want to debate everyone's gender, including those who are not trans and would never want to transition.


I believe everyone should debate their gender, especially straight cis people. Imagine what that would do to society!



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14 Feb 2013, 8:45 am

nessa238 wrote:
This behaviour also merely proves to me what I suspected all along as well but I won't say it on here because I am being effectively gagged by an oppressive form of emotional blackmail.


I was not trying to gag you at all. I was not attempting to emotionally blackmail you, I just have very strong emotions on the topic, obviously. While not everyone needs to transition, it's dangerous then to make the assumption that no one needs to transition medically.

At the end of the day transition is about making you feel comfortable in your own body, and people have different comfort levels. For example, some people only need to be socially accepted while for others it is equally important that their body roughly matches their mental image of themselves.

It's fine to discuss it - by all means, I think it's an important topic of conversation - but if you can't discuss it in a manner that doesn't make the group of people you're talking about hurt, feel marginalized and that their experiences are being dismissed then you're doing it wrong.

The study itself - which I've seen before and a lot of FtMs I talk to (autistic and allistic) have found to be really problematic, overly simplistic and reductive. I think there likely is a relationship between neurodivergence and gender variance.

I am sure about transition. It's something that's hard to talk about calmly and rationally any more because of the amount of people who, even when I calmly explain my reasons for transition (which are emotion based) they tell me to essentially get over it, don't do that. That my identity is invalid. That my value as a person is greatly diminished because of my trans identity. So, when people start making assumptions as to why trans people are doing what they're doing past experience has taught me to guard myself.

So, I'll stop oppressing you and leave this thread.



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14 Feb 2013, 9:13 am

nessa238 wrote:
This behaviour also merely proves to me what I suspected all along as well but I won't say it on here because I am being effectively gagged by an oppressive form of emotional blackmail.

to you, this is an academic discussion, but to a trans person this could literally be a life and death situation. it is perfectly reasonable for them to make that clear to you. it doesn't work to discuss people's conditions as an abstract concept without expecting that they will want to contribute their personal experiences and ideas (which you even solicited from FalsettoTesla once he posted in the thread).

your opinion about surgery being optional runs counter to that of many trans people, and i don't really understand why you think you would understand the issues and experiences better than an actual trans person in their own body, and you can expect that you will be argued against most strenuously by someone who has a different personal experience. if you dismiss their experiences, you can expect a backlash in the thread because you simply cannot speak for them.

if you feel gagged by someone else's emotions, then perhaps that is a signal that you are saying something that is extremely triggering for them, and perhaps you could take a step back and evaluate whether it really needs saying.


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nessa238
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14 Feb 2013, 10:09 am

I understand

My empathy isn't good when I am too interested in a subject so sorry if I have upset people - it wasn't my intention. Your experience of your gender is just as valid as anyone elses' and I can see how it could feel very oppressive to have other people thinking they know best when it isn't about me, I am just speaking hypothetically without any direct experience of how it feels.



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14 Feb 2013, 10:19 am

Heidi80 wrote:
I don't mind having a woman's body (although I dress and act quite "butch"). What I hate are the assumptions people make about me because I have a woman's body. So I don't know what I exactly am. Androgynous? Genderqueer? My aspie friends understand and treat me like a dude. My biological family knows nothing. The anxiety I feel isn't enough to force me to go further with this thing, but one day it probably will be.


Genderqueer is a big umbrella that covers all non-cisgended and non-binary genders so you may find something under there at fits you well. I'm Agendered and my friends just consider me Epitome or Jess. I'm not different from them, but my life is without gender role conformity along with my dress and self expression and interests. Maybe there is something under the umbrella that could suit you better. Nothing wrong with being off the binary or fluid in gender, we just need more awareness and acceptance.


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14 Feb 2013, 10:42 am

Any information on the mtfs? I'm not really trusting this study because of the source, the hell is an autistic trait? I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but I'm going to take his conclusions with a large grain of salt.


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zemanski
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14 Feb 2013, 11:00 am

I think gender issues are a common comorbid but certainly not a core feature of ASCs.

It's not so very long ago that clinicians were still telling the parents of AS children that they would be completely disinterested in sex or gender and not to expect relationships or grandchildren - and by not so very long ago, I mean in the last 3 years!



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14 Feb 2013, 11:34 am

Ganondox wrote:
Any information on the mtfs? I'm not really trusting this study because of the source, the hell is an autistic trait? I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but I'm going to take his conclusions with a large grain of salt.


What would make you trust the study?