ADHD Does Not Exist

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Your statements about ADHD are on the same level as Savage's about autism. That is not to say you are like Michael Savage, but if you dislike the comparison, perhaps your approach to ADHD is a bit off kilter.



Okay so you're saying that something that didn't happen is likely to happen if you were in school. How helpful is that to prove anything?

And people are prone to exaggeration. Is it actually true there are eight kids in one class that are prescribed ritalin? If there are, is this a reasonable basis for concluding they were misdiagnosed? Or is it just "classrooms are structured and look at all these kids popping ritalin?" because that's not really an argument, it's more like begging the question.

This is what's called an appeal to inappropriate authority. That is, you're claiming that because these types of schools do not allow accommodations that this is evidence that accommodations are not necessary. Taking a more rigorously factual approach:

This link has a detailed explanation for dealing with law schools on this topic:

http://disabilityrights-law.org/?q=law_school_faqs

The thing about the need for accommodations is that it is set up in such a manner that businesses and schools are not strictly required to provide accommodations, and that disabled people often have to take up legal action to gain access to them. There is a pervasive bias against disabilities and disabled people in this society, which is reflected in everything from the lack of necessary accommodations to refusal to hire disabled people or admit them to university due to denial of the necessity for accommodations.

So essentially, what you are saying here is that because law schools and medical schools have an ableist bias against students who received accommodations on the LSAT and MCAT, that it is ethically justifiable to deny accommodations - that in fact, accommodations are not needed. If that's your opinion, you have a right to it, but basing determinations that it's okay to treat disabled people badly because some institutions do it is an ethically vacuous argument.

A similar argument might be "That some businesses do not want to provide wheelchair access proves that accommodations are unnecessary." The lack of desire to accommodate does not mean accommodations are necessary. The lack of desire to accommodate is the reason that the ADA and the ADAAA exist, as toothless as they are.

It is still profoundly hypocritical of you to make such an argument given how negatively you view and talk about autism. If autism is so awful, how can you assert that autistic people are just as able as otherwise abled NTs?

I am curious...how do they know which students receive accommodations? Also, how do they know what accommodations they receive? For example, my son has never had an accommodation for extra time, but he does have an accommodation to sit in a quiet room if need be. I think he has maybe used it twice in his whole life. His accommodations are not related to test taking for the most part, so on what basis would medical and law schools have the right to discriminate against him?

Unless you mean accommodations during the LSAT and MCAT? Isn't that just flat out discrimination? I have never heard of anything so absurd. Well...wait...yes, I have.

Over.

And over.

And over again.

Yeah, he just means accommodations during LSAT and MCAT. Those are flagged for law school and medical school. If you receive them your file will be flagged, and you can choose whether to disclose your entire accommodation/disability history regarding those tests or not. There are reasons to disclose or not disclose for various reasons, but it does help enable anti-disability bias in those institutions.

This isn't really related to what you said, but what you said made me think of it.

The problem is, IMHO, that the label ATTENTION deficit HYPERACTIVITY disorder is all wrong. Not paying attention and being restless are not really the underlying problems, but potential symptoms of the underlying problem, which is ineffective executive functioning. If they started diagnosing primarily on the basis of symptoms related to issues with executive dysfunction, I think they'd weed out a lot of the kids that I think are simply more kinesthetic than their peers, or more easily prone to boredom. Being naturally physically active and needing more stimulation does not necessarily an ADHD'er make. My boss gets bored much more easily than I do, but there is nothing ADHD about her.

I don't know what the actual misdiagnosis rate is. I don't even know how one would go about figuring it out. But similar complaints have been lodged against ASD and I don't think people would idly sit around and tolerate an article that basically said ASD is fake. And I think that people who experience it as a largely invisible disorder (which for many it is) would find it particularly troubling.

Many people with ASD and ADHD are ducks. On the surface they look calm and serene. But no one can see their feet paddling away at warp speed under the water to avoid being swept away by the current.

Articles like this are dangerous because they add fuel to those who discredit the experience of others and persist in the belief that they are lazy, unmotivated, not trying hard enough, etc.

The group meeting lasted 2.5 hours, gah.

ADHD and ASD are both diagnosed by behavioral symptoms of underlying brain functions, EF in case of ADHD and various things including social cognition and whatever unknown factors cause behaviors associated with ASD.

So a range of objective tests that measure certain brain functions should help in accurate diagnosis of ADHD as well as ASD in future.

I appreciate that very much.



http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edit ... 82672.html


I am in no way saying that ADHD doesn't exist.


I am not saying anything remotely like this. Personally I think that our American educational system has lost it's way. I think that little kids are still baking until they are six or seven, and sending them off to school at four can be just wrong. I also believe that we have turned over a great deal of parenting to schools and "doctors," experts, and authorities. Nowadays it seems that when kids, even little kids, can't sit, when told to sit, and obey, when told to obey, they are sent to the doctor's office...

Yes I am referring to the LSAT and MCAT. It is your opinion that it is discrimination, we will see what the courts decide as their is currently a federal lawsuit by the state of California and the USDOJ against the law school group that admins the LSAT over this issue.

Personally I hope Law School Admissions Council wins. No way is flagging scores discrimination. It allows all scores to be viewed in the proper light.

Yep...and with that I think I am out.

(Tall-P, I know you are not saying that. I was more commenting on how topics like this often slowly weed out the middle ground and leave the extremists on either side taking pot-shots at one another--and Dianthus and Verandi, I do not view you as extremists...just so you don't think I do. Tall-P I will go back and read the link you posted after I asked about Asian populations later as I find that interesting.)

Have fun with the rest of this conversation...

I don't have the energy to get into a debate tonight but I couldn't agree more with this statement. I was sent to see many "experts" and in my experiences most of them didn't have a F***ing clue, I even knew that as a 4-5 year old! What kind of moron pediatrician says a kid is just a class clown because his butt and head hurt so much from sitting still doing mind numbingly boring work? It was LAUGHABLY obvious why I was struggling and but NOBODY even came close to cluing in, with my mother the only one coming even remotely close. I love how not being blindly obedient is seen as such as bad thing but I guess that explains why so many people are fanatically religious, nationalistic or both.

I was just looking up objective measures for ADHD and came across this abstract:

I think objective measures other than IQ subtests are needed for ADHD and ASD.

Also, are there areas in which people with ADHD have superior performance compared to NTs? It is harder to feign superior performance than fail on tests on purpose.

Yeah, I've read that study. That's why I posted recently that ADHD is not hard to fake. That specific study is specifically why, I mean. I'm sure some have done it. I'm also a moderator on an ADD related forum and occasionally we get posters asking for advice on how to get a psych to prescribe stimulants, but we remove such posts. We don't get many of those, however.

I think the number of people doing this are much lower than the number of adults who went undiagnosed and untreated as children and into adulthood, and such people typically have poor outcomes.

Do some children with ADHD lose most of their ADHD traits in adulthood? I think I read that some do, but I forgot the percentages.

And this losing of ADHD traits, is it really losing the traits, like there was EF delay, but eventually catching up? Or is it coping mechanisms like people with ASD develop from younger to older ages?

Almost forgot:

According to Dr. Russell Barkley, ADHD represents nothing but deficits and impairment. I'm not sure I believe that, but I do not think that there is at this time anything that people with ADHD are known to be superior at.

TOVA is helpful I think, although by itself it certainly cannot diagnose ADHD.

Not everyone who is undiagnosed and untreated is doomed for a bad life. While not ADHD I have met plenty of people on the spectrum like me who weren't diagnosed until long after college, who have a college degree, a stable job, and some even have a family. I am not convinced being undiagnosed is a this huge disaster.

The biggest problem with being undiagnosed is a lack of real close friends, and even being diagnosed early won't fix this.

I've read some articles and research that indicated some adults do indeed outgrow ADHD by their late 20s, that it was a delay and they did eventually catch up. I forget what the percentages are.

There's also some research based on self-reports by people with ADHD who reported in their late teens and early 20s that they were fine, but longitudinal studies with information gathered from parents, teachers, and employers indicates that it's more a lack of self-awareness and attributing their problems to other factors, and that they are still impaired.

People do develop coping mechanisms but I am not sure how effective they are, or if this "recovery" reflects that.



I wasn't saying it's bad for everyone, but statistically speaking untreated ADHD tends to lead to teen pregnancies, dropping out of high school, not getting or completing a college education, getting stuck in lower economic brackets, and a higher rate of criminal convictions and prison time. Because this is a statistic, it's not true for everyone, but it is more likely to be true for anyone who has untreated ADHD. There's also a high correlation between physical abuse and having ADHD.

It's similar with ASD - statistically people with ASD will be unemployed or underemployed, to the rate of 90%. This doesn't mean that no one on the spectrum can ever have a good, high paying job. Just that it is significantly less likely than it is for NTs.