ENworld has double standards, they don't like people with AS

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I used to be a good standing member at ENworld, a RPG site, but lately they have banned me because they did not like my option on sports and athletes. Post my opinion about that did not volate the rules of the sire. But the admins there did not like what I had to say. Here is an email exchange between one of the admins and myself. He admits that there is no such thing as free speech there and the admins can ignore the rules they made, a double standard. Tell everyone you know how that site discrimnates against autisic people. Sorry its so long and start at the bottom and go up.


I know I did nothing wrong expressing my options in the sports fourms. But the admins at ENworld did not like what I was saying so you banned me. I thought this was an abuse of your power because no place in the posted rules does it say anything about not posting about sports topics.
I have no intrest in coming back to keep getting abused by you people when all i'm doing is expressing my option. its not my fault people have a problem with my option.
I am going to tell everyone I know about this double standard you have, and since i'm already banned, not much more you can do. Nice double standards you guys have over there. I've walked out of jobs because of this type of crap. I will not stand it any longer.
Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Kulp
To: Ken
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: EN World rules violation


Boy, I'm sorry to hear that, Ken. But you're wrong. You want us to apply the rules to everyone else but you, and that's just not going to happen. You recognize that you've got AS, but you aren't allowing me to tell you when you've violated a social rule. I really hope you reconsider.

As a final result of your "nazi" post, and because you've given us no indication that you aren't going to continually ignore the moderators' instructions, we're suspending your account at least until the end of the year. If you want to be active again after that time, we all agree that we'd love to have you back if you agree to follow the rules. Email any moderator or admin (addresses are in the Meta forum) if you decide to at that point. I'd actually recommend that you print out this email exchange and show it to a friend or family member you can trust; it might be of some use to get other perspectives on the issue.

You probably don't believe me, but we wish you the best. Be well.

Kevin

cc Moderators and Admins




On 11/26/06, Ken < [email protected]> wrote:
Kevin,
I'll walk out the door by myself. If I can't get a fair shake and express myself within the rules, then ENworld is not a place I want to be. You (the admins) acting like you are better then everyone while ignoring your own guidlines is making my physicallly ill. Rules are suposted to be followed by everyone on the fourm, even the ones running it. I am going to go around to everyone I know i tell them in person what kind of double standards you have for people and you like to pick on the person that has a different option then every else. I never felt I was rude, maybe thats part of my AS, I don't get some social cues, ect, but that does not give you the right to stop me from expressing how I feel. I have more respect for myself then to be treated like that.
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Kulp
To: Ken
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: EN World rules violation


Thank you for the explanation, Ken. I'm disappointed by the response, because I get the feeling that you don't think you did anything wrong and you'd do the same thing again. The moderators and admins will discuss it, and I or another moderator will get back to you.

It may be worth a minute discussing why we ordered you out of sports threads. I'm not entirely sure this will make sense, but I'd like to try.

EN World is not, and never has been, and has never claimed to be, a place where free speech is allowed. We're effectively visiting with one another at a virtual dinner party in Morrus's living room on the internet. Just like being at a dinner party in the real world, there are a few social contracts involved -- and the main one is don't be a jerk to the other guests. That's why we don't allow religion or politics; these subjects are more likely than most to cause arguments, and they have nothing to do with D&D, so who needs 'em? But they aren't the only problem subjects, and it is the job of the moderators to step in and ask people to stop when they're being inordinately rude. It's the job of the admins to toss them out the door, whether for a very short time or permanently, if they've been asked to stop being rude but they persist.

This is the situation we found ourselves in with you and sports threads. You started your own thread about how you don't like atheletes, and that was okay, but then you started jumping into other peoples' upbeat sports threads with negative comments and ruining their conversations too. That's called thread-crapping; you also see it sometimes when anti-Greyhawk people try to ruin every Greyhawk thread, or FR-haters jump in to FR threads to ruin those. This is a behavior we don't like and do not encourage. When we saw you were doing it we quickly realized that this was a problem behavior. We made comments in threads to ask you to stop, and then when that didn't work we told you to stop, then Morrus deleted one of your threads (and you opened up another one! Another big no-no). As moderators, it is our job to make sure the party is fun for everyone. You were spoken to because you were making the party less fun for other people. Not because your opinion is necessarily a wrong or bad thing, but because the way and frequency with which you chose to express it made people - and us - unhappy.

To continue the analogy above, the moderators saw that you were upsetting other guests with a rude behavior even after they asked you not to. So you got a three day suspension to stress and underscore that we were really serious, and that ignoring a moderator is never okay.

That brings us to now. You're telling me that ignoring an admin is okay, because "we don't obey our own rules." You're right, we don't have to, and that's the way EN World works. Part of enforcing our guidelines is that we have the responsibility to decide when, and to what extent, we should enforce them. (This is why we have under-punished your behavior so far, as we wanted to give you as much leniency as possible.) Don't like it? That's too bad, because it has always been that way and it works really well at keeping EN world a friendly and fun place. It's not going to change. As a member, it is your responsibility to obey what moderators and admins tell you if you want to post there.

And that's the real problem, Ken. It doesn't matter if you think we made the wrong call on the sports issue. If you wish to post at EN world, it is your responsibility to abide by our decision. It doesn't matter if you think that decision is unfair. You're effectively telling the guys keeping peace at the dinner party, "Screw you, I'm going to tell everyone you're nazis because I don't like the fact that you asked me not to annoy people." When people do that Ken, we show them the door permanently, because we have no other choice when they choose to ignore our authority.

Which is a long-winded way of explaining why I'm so frustrated with this situation; you're doing the one thing that is guaranteed to get you banned.

Hmmm. Would it help any if I laid out three rules that you might not fully have thought through?

Rule 1: It is a Moderator's job to do what they need to for the site to run smoothly, even things you may not agree with.
Rule 2: When a moderator tells you to do something on the boards, you follow their direction even if you don't agree with it.
Rule 3: You shouldn't speak ill of moderators on the boards any more than you'd insult another member, and you never discuss moderation in public (but you can always email any moderator privately to discuss a situation.)

If you can live with and abide by these rules, then tell me that - and you'll have to do so after any suspension is up, even if you're having a bad day. And if you can't live with them because you believe they aren't fair, please tell me that, too.

Kevin


On 11/26/06, Ken <[email protected]> wrote:
Kevin,
I told you why in the last message I sent you. I felt that you (the admins of ENworld) did not respect your own rules you made by having me banned for a time for posting about a subject that was not forbidden to talk about in the rules, You did not like what I was saying, so you banned me. So I felt that if the admins of ENworld did not respect there own rules, why should I? Thats why, you don't respect your own rules, so the Admins are going to do whatever they want, to anyone there, on a whim. So there is no point to rules if the people that enforce the rules ignore them. I was just doing what the admins were doing to me.
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Kulp
To: Ken
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: EN World rules violation


Ken, I understand about AS - a family member has it - and I understand why you were originally upset about not being allowed to post about sports. That is NOT my question.

Why, specifically, did you violate the clearly explained rules that say that you may not discuss moderation decisions on the boards?

This no longer has anything to do with the sports threads. This is about you breaking the rules by publicly bitching about moderation, which is in the public rules and which I explicity told you it was not allowed. That's what I need to understand. I need to know whether this is going to happen again the next time you have a bad day, and I need to understand if you think that venting like that was okay.

Kevin


On 11/26/06, Ken <[email protected] > wrote:
Kevin,
That part is clear, but let me tell you why I did what I did. The rules state you can't post topics sexual, religous, or political in nature. My posts about sports was none of those, but all of a sudden because the powers that be at ENworld does not agree with my option, there is a new rule saying I can't post about sports?
What good are the rules if the people that set those rules ignore them and change them on a whim? Thats why I did what I did, if the people running the fourms don't respect they're own rules, why should I?
The reason I keep bringing up my AS is people with AS see things very black and white, and when people change things for what seems like a whim, we get upset. Orginally I did not do anything outside the posted rules, thats why I'm upset.
Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Kulp
To: Ken
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: EN World rules violation


> Rules are suposted to be clear cut

They certainly are. One more question, and it isn't a hypothetical one. Is there anything that is not clear cut about the following statement, which I quoted below and emailed to you in September?

>> "Ken. I'll be very clear about this. You can't express your thoughts about disciplinary matters on the boards. That's what that rule says; if a moderator talks to you about something, you don't then complain about it in public."

This is not an issue of autism, Ken, because we've specifically been crystal clear about what is required if you want to post at EN world. This is an issue of following the instructions we've precisely laid out. If you can't do that, then we have a problem.

I reviewed your account last night. For the purpose of completeness, I'll note that you were warned about three times to lay off the sports thread-crapping, including one time when Morrus himself closed his thread - and you immediately went and opened up another one. That's enough to get most folks suspended for a week. Instead, I suspended you for three days and sent you an email (which you never received.) You went and posted lies about us on rpg.net, which again is enough to get most people perma-banned. We seem to have a history with you of you breaking rules and not receiving the normal consequence.

Your frustration with that three day ban - and the degree to which it continues to bother you - is totally out of proportion with the scope of the punishment. Calling us nazis? Hoo boy.

Please answer the question I asked above, and I'll get back to you this evening about our decision.

Kevin



On 11/26/06, Ken < [email protected] > wrote:
Kevin AKA Piratecat,
The rules only stated that I could not post anything about religon or politics. There was nothing in the rules about not posting about sports topics. Thats why I was so upset, the people running ENworld did not like what I was saying so because they did not like it, they choose to ban me for a few days without warning or email notice. How would you feel? The rules on posting was clearly spelled out and I did not voilate them. I had a bad night that night and expressed my option.
I have a right to express my option, I did it within the rules, but the people in charge at ENworld choose to change the rules without warning. Looks like different standards for different people.
Ken

PS I really don't care what you do, i know I did nothing wrong. I have AS, a fourm of autism. Read up on it sometime and you might understand where I'm coming from. Rules are suposted to be clear cut, not made up as you go along.


----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Kulp
To: Ken
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:34 PM
Subject: EN World rules violation



Ken, Piratecat here.

First, I'll ask you to reread the previous emails below, which we exchanged on September 11th of this year. Then, I'll refer you to your deleted post in the NWN thread:


Originally Posted by KenM
"Thanks for your help guys. I always know I can count on the people at ENworld to help me when I'm in a jam. After all, this is the place that banned me for expressing my option on something without informing me beforehand. The only restrictions here are religon and politics, and it was not about either, but because some of the people that are in charge here did not like what I had to say, I get banned. I did not attack anyone, but because I have an option on a certin type of person, the people in charge did not like my option, so they shut me down by shutting me out. Just like nazis. Does it give the moderators hard-ons knowing they have so much power over free speech?"

Ken, we're considering what action to take in light of your offending post. As you see below, we had this problem with you before and were crystal clear about what is and isn't allowed. Before we decide, we want to understand what led you to break the rules again so egregiously. What would you do in our position, when someone has been specifically and individually instructed about the rules and specifically violates that instruction after having acknowledged it?

We look forward to your reply.

- Kevin Kulp (Piratecat)

cc All moderators and admins



On 9/11/06, Kevin Kulp < [email protected]> wrote:
Ah. Sarcasm. But with the amount you post, we'd be swamped!

Ken. I'll be very clear about this. You can't express your thoughts about disciplinary matters on the boards. That's what that rule says; if a moderator talks to you about something, you don't then complain about it in public. It's a rule that's been in place since day 1 and which applies to everyone, not just you. Have you noticed that when other members have gotten in trouble, they don't then start threads complaining about the situation? This is why.

Talk about D&D to your heart's content, and have fun. Fun is good. But please read and understand the rules, and ask me questions if you have any, because we're not flexible on this with anyone.

- Kevin



On 9/11/06, Ken < [email protected]> wrote:
Kevin,
I was expressing my thoughts on the matter. I thought you could express your thoughts in a public fourm. Next time I want to post something I'll message a admin to see if its ok first.
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Kulp [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:14 PM
To: Ken
Subject: "Most disturbing thing" thread in OT


Ken, from the EN World rules at the top of every forum:

----------------

1) We appreciate that sometimes you will disagree with a moderator's decision, or feel that a request from a moderator is unfair or unjustified. With over 32,000 members, we're not going to be able to keep everyone happy all of the time, so we settle for trying to keep most people happy most of the time. Whether or not you agree with a moderator's stance, we do expect you to abide by their decisions and requests.

2) If you really, really disagree with a moderator's position on a [moderating] issue, please don't argue about it on the boards. That means no calling out of moderators, no challenging their decisions in the thread, and certainly no attempts to go over a moderator's head. The moderators all discuss such things amongst themselves, and no moderator or admin is ever going to override another. If you honestly feel that you have been treated unfairly, please contact the moderator in question privately and discuss it with them. The end result may not be the one you were seeking, but we will do our our best to be fair.

-----------------

I know you don't agree with our instructions to stay out of sports discussions (which you've been great about, thank you), but by complaining about it online you're challenging us in public. Please stop doing so. You'll see some additional commentary by me in that "most disturbing thing" thread, and I'm happy to discuss it privately with you, but what you're doing simply isn't okay. If you need me to be clearer as to why not, please let me know.

- Kevin (Piratecat)

That website has more than 46,000 registered members. I don't know what you wrote, but if you like posting there, I'd apologize, even if you didn't do anything wrong because being right won't allow you to come back. Getting back on the admins' good side will be more effective.

But I don't want to go back there, i'm done with them. I'm letting every other web site I post on know what kind of hypocrites they are.

There was nothing in the rules saying I could no post my option about sports. Just because people don't like what I'm saying, it does not give them the right to ban me. You don't like what I'm saying, don't listen to me. Thats what the ignore feature is for.

You're definetly doing the right thing Ken. I've been victim to such a situation myself. A friend got banned on a forum and I asked why. They didn't want to answer. Then I asked again but in reply they gave me a warning for arrogant behaviour...
Then, I opened a thread asking why X was banned.
...And that's when they called it a day and banned me too.

Some forums are run by smegheads, others by okay people. You just have to find the right ones

When you posted in other people's threads, did you contribute to the thread, or just repost your disgust of athletes?

OK, I have said this to people who have run afoul with the WP rules and I will say this again:

"The owners of the forum boards have the right to do whatever they want with such boards. They are not owned by the public. The first amendment does not extend to private boards. The owners and persons vested to act as owners (mods and admins) have the right to ban you from their own boards no matter what you think."

Now with that said, here is my take on the situation based on the emails you posted:

1) The mods/admins were not upset about your opinion per say but the way you decided to express them. Apparently you had posted a thread about how you hate athletes which was fine by the mods/admins but then you chose to express those opinions in other threads (for what reason, I do not know). Apparently the rules in ENWorld specifically say that posting such opinions in other threads is not allowed if the opinion ruins the purpose of the thread.

2) The ENWorld boards do not allow you to publicly call out the mods on their decisions but to do so privately. The same type of rules are set up on WP too. ENWorld has more users than even WP and there is no way every user will be happy. Not only that but then you challenged the decision on other forums which makes ENWorld look bad. No wonder they are not happy with you.

3) The mods/admins were as lenient with you as possible. They even asked you take on the problem before decided their next action. I know that when I was a mod and admin on WP, I would have gotten your opinion after the fact.

4) The admin talking to you even gave you an analogy of what is expected of you. When you talk in a forum, you are in the home of the forum owner. As in a Real life home, you have to follow the rules of the owner. I get frustrated at NTs too but that is because some of them take my sign at deferring to their right to make decisions in their home as an invitation to tell me what to do in my own home and that I do not allow at all.

5) When you did break a social rule, the mods followed the procedures designed to help you in the right direction. They first told you what you were doing wrong, then you continued so they stressed the point by offering what they thought was a fair punishment.

From what I gather, the mods/admins were within rights to act as they did. I know you will not like me saying that but as a mod who has been challenged many times, I cannot feel sorry for you. You were warned, ignored the warning, then punished. You got mad because you were punished and violated another social rule which caused the admins to inflict a harsher punishment.

Finally, if those of us with AS are to ever be accepted in society, then we must be willing to learn from situations like this rather than using AS as an excuse. If you think you were really right, then don't go back. I myself have fought for what I insisted was right, but I also knew the consequences in doing so. Please though, do not use AS as an excuse for your actions. You make the rest of us look bad.

I was not using AS as an excuse. I told them about my AS so they would know where I was coming from. Why would I want to go back to a place when I got treated like that? I'm not going to kiss the admins butts because I know I did not do anything wrong. its the NTs that need to change thinking when dealing with people with AS. I have AS, its who I am. I'm not going to change my thinking to make someone else happy. If they don'tlike who i really am and can't deal with it, its they're problem. I'm not changing for anyone.

Asperger's Syndrome does not give you licence to behave like a complete turd. Now, they seem quite co-operative and willing to listen and work out the problem, but you just decided to ignore them. So they dealt with you.

Trust me, you won't have many friends in this life if you aren't willing to listen to people.

Fine Ken, don't change but don't expect others to change for you either. NT's are a majority in this world and as such, we have to follow their rules or suffer their consequences.

people change all the time. people aren't static. what's wrong with not speaking about your opinions when you know it'll upset someone else? i do that all the time. that doesn't make me weak willed, I'd hope.

I'm sorry...I read the first few exchanges..and that was enough. you *were* out of line..they *did* talk to you about it, more than once, and even asked to understand your viewpoint.

I've moderated forums before..you would have been long gone, if I were the mod in question. It seems like you are using your AS as an excuse to terrorize people. (if you just wanted to express your opinion, why did you not keep it in your own thread? why go troll in others?)

forums aren't enjoyable for anyone if they can't have a conversation without being bombarded with hate; and you continued to voice your grievances on the boards after you were told not to.

I don't find their actions hypocritical, at all.

As another has stated, the forum owner/moderators reserve the right to ban you for any reason at any time even if its just "I felt like it" or "I dont like him" thats the way it works.

Privately owned forums arent democracies you have no rights there they are dictatorships.

Its just a matter of how benevolent the dictator is as to how much freedom they are willing to give you.

But on the other hand as others here who know me can attest Im notoriously obnoxious and stubborn at times so I cant really fault you for your actions but we both know neither of us should behave that way just let it go and accept the consequences of your actions regardless of whether you feel it is fair or not.

We dont allow being an NT as an excuse for poor behavior here so why should they allow having AS as an excuse there?

KenM,

I used to come across as somewhat arogant, some say I STILL do! NOW, I find that is somewhat of an aspie trait. I have ALWAYS hated sports. I always felt it a waste of time, etc.... When I saw my father, it seemed like he spent a third of his time sleeping, and a third watching sports! I am ALSO opinionated, and often say things as I see them. I used to get in trouble for it!

I don't know WHAT you said, but if you said what I think sometimes about it, you're a DEAD DUCK! I would NEVER say that!

I am not about to tell you want to do with enworld, but next time maybe you should try to avoid such confrontation.

Steve