Telling people I am LISTENING

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Yesterday I just lost one of my best friends.

I am going through a bad breakup with my partner of seven years. Because of my aspie tendancies
I seem to find it difficult to know what I can and cant say about the situation. I am trying not to
talk about it at all nowadays but sometimes something slips out: she was abusive to me, she was evil,
or similar. (These are both true statements and not hyperbole)

Now the friend I am referring to hadn't met me before the break up and her support has been
invaluable over the last two years. But I no longer have that support because I've upset her too much
and too often.

I very rarely say things intended to upset people but I seem to do it by accident. This was the case with my ex and
is the case with lots of my friends. Pretty much the first I get to know about it is when someone loses their
temper and tells me off for upsetting them. I try to explain to them that I dont know what it is that
upset them and that they need to tell me.

More often than not they tell me I have to LISTEN.

No matter how I explain it to them I cant seem to convey the fact that I *do* listen. I listen
very very hard. They dont seem to get it.

My friend has started avoiding me and doesnt want me to communicate with her because I upset her
and other friends. she tells me that she does tell me when I am doing it and that I dont listen.
I've tried to explain to her that I need her to tell me what I've done wrong and she just tells me that
that is part of me not listening.


Can you suggest ways I can better tell people that I really am trying to listen to them with
all my abilities? How do you explain to people that you've hurt that you didnt *mean* to
hurt them and that you would have avoided it if you could?

UGH! That burden in on them and not you. Unfortunately you are the one to lose out on their lack of communication.

"You need to listen" is woman-ese really. I try and say to my husband "Ok this is how I am hearing what you are saying" because I want to make sure I hear him correctly ( we are both NT) and with my son ( who has AS) I try and explain to him " this is how people hear what you are saying...or not saying" depending on the situation etc.)

Do your friends know you have AS? Are they not understanding you need things explained as you can't hear it from their point of view?

I had poor terminology like that with my son; things like "You did not try NOT to do it" which made no sense to him. I now understand just because I am thinking something is obvious and clear to me it can escape other people's perceptions of what is being said. Both NT and AS worlds have issues with woman-ese Wink

My friend does know I have aspergers - she even made a point of mentioning it in email yesterday.

well then what the hell is wrong with her?? ( that is joking sarcasm by the way)

are you putting effort into listening to people or are you just waiting for your turn to talk? Sometimes people will seem like they are listening but when it is their turn to talk in the conversation they don't offer input to what the first person was saying and deviate the conversation to their own interests. I know this is a social thing a lot of AS people can miss and conversation is a game unto itself sometimes.

Did she offer any clues? You don't know why she is angry aside from the fact you "don't listen"?

Is your friend NT? If so, you probably aren't comprehending, even though you are listening. That's because NTs don't speak literally. While TeeTee_Mom calls that womanese, I find it's true of all NTs. Literally NTs are taught not to say exactly what they mean because it's considered rude. Aspies are always literal unless we are saying scripted things to pretend we are like NTs (guess what NTs, we still don't understand what you are saying, we're just trying to avoid pissing you off). So, your friend is probably giving you all of these really weird, convoluted NT messages that are supposed to convey that you have stepped over the line and you need to shut up. Here's an example. You are going on and on about your break up. NT friend says, "Hey, want to go see such and such movie?" Now to you and I that means exactly what it says. To an NT, that is the polite way of telling you they have had enough and it's time to change the subject to something else. If you didn't understand that at all, you aren't alone. No AS person would. It's not literal or logical. What is really being said by the NT is not contained in the words at all. It's obvious to all NTs but invisible to an Aspie. Therefore, they think you are not listening.

So, it's not enough to say, you have to tell me when I step over the line. You have to be specific about how they have to tell you. VERY specific. This is what I do. I say, I'm a social idiot. You can't beat around the bush with me because I won't get it. You'll just get upset and I'll get frustrated, but I still won't understand because I'm just a social idiot. So, if you want me to shut up, you have to forget everything you were taught about being polite and say, Shut up, Zanne. I'm not interested. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. You won't. It's literally the only way I am going to get it and I know it, so just say it.


Now, it's going to take awhile before they actually believe this (this flies in the face of all NT teaching and thinking), but once they get it, they are okay with it. It's weird to them, but they can do it. Once they figure this out, they usually start helping you out in situations where other NTs are not being literal with you and you aren't getting it. It makes them feel like they know something the other NTs don't and they like that.


You just have to accept that our minds work differently. Their mind relies heavily on facial expressions and hidden subtexts to what they say. Our mind gets none of that. So, we have to learn how to help them translate. It would be easier if we could just develop the translation tool ourselves, but we can't. I'm 47 now and I still don't "get" it. I will never "get" it. That doesn't mean I can't help them to understand how to relate to me. They do eventually "get" that about me. You just have to be blunt. They can't do anything if they don't understand the problem and what to do about it.

yes true...my son tell's people to just tel him to stop talking if they want him to stop etc. I have learned to tell him to stop talking or that I am not interested in what he is saying. We NT's are trying to play tricks tho, we just don't want to be rude to people and an NT would consider it rude if we say " I am not interested in what you are saying"

It helps a lot if you interject things into the conversation like, "Really?", Oh yeah?", "Hmm..", "Wow", "Oh no", "Great", "Umm hmm", "I see", at appropriate points and when the person is pausing briefly. It shows the person you are following what they are saying.

Exactly TeeTee_Mom. NTs are just doing what they are taught and what's natural. Unfortunately, for an Aspie, this causes a complete breakdown in communication. It's hard and sometimes awkward for NTs and Aspies to communicate, but by no means impossible. It just takes explaining it (and getting NTs to believe it, after all, it does go against everything they've been taught) and a lot of time explaining it over and over until they actually believe that it's true. (Yes, I really AM that clueless.)


I find this so much better than mimicking NT speech and behavior because when I do that, I look like I'm getting it, but I'm not. That just leads to bigger misunderstandings down the road when it finally becomes apparent that I'm not getting it. That's when the NT gets mad and says I wasn't listening or that I just didn't care.

I never heard it put this way, but you are RIGHT, even if you think you are joking. Women DO often speak/think differently from men. Women sometimes sound like, and are suspicious, like lawyers.

I really think males have to tread softly around this. BTW the idea is not new. Men are from mars, women are from venus talks about this, and I have even seen books written by women for either sex that say the SAME. I learned this like 38 years ago from my mother and girls in my classes.

BTW this is one reason why aspie females sound so great to me! They may be clearer, use less "body language", etc... They may be very feminine and everything, but be able to communicate better with men. It is a pitty that past experiences and society may turn them off from men as a whole, or have them develop some of the worst attributes that other women have, like the suspicious nature and chip on the shoulder.

HEY, I can understand THAT also. I have developed some of the same attitudes. 8-(

Steve

Yes - that is sort of what I am trying to explain. But it isnt just a lack of comprehending - it is the fact that I didnt even know there was something I wasnt comprehending. That gets interpreted by my NT friends as "not listening".

Thanks for the advice

Quite often when discussing my situation I've been told by friends/acquaintances that I have gone too far - I've breached some unwritten rule that I didnt know and have no way of measuring.

They are telling me now to "stop talking" but the end result is that I dont know what I can say and so I say nothing. End of friendship.

I do get this from men as well as from women.

wait so they don't want to hear what you have to say at all? When they say gone to far, can you give me an example of the conversation on your part? How can they end a friendship with you over your talking?

I have friends that I feel really bonded to and we don't even have to talk when we are together. I would like you to explain in more detail, if you can.

It is the cumulative effect of trying to recover from the abuse I suffered.

Apparently I swore at her when trying to say that I didnt want everyone telling me what to do all the time.
I thought I was swearing at everyone else but she included herself in that. (Am I not allowed
to lose my temper ever? I was getting contradictory advice from different friends and could NOT
do what everyone asked).

She thinks that I deliberately ignore advice she has given me when in fact I have tried to follow
every piece of advice *she* has given me.

But her advice might include "Stop being a victim, stop letting your ex hurt you. Be a survivor".
That is a lot easier to say than to do.

She thinks I am asking my friends to make decisions for me - when in fact all that is happening
is that I dont trust my own opinions about social matters...

ok so she is being vague and you are looking for support more than advise perhaps?

Did you tell her you just want someone to listen to your internal pain? ( I am guessing that is an issue since she offers " be a survivor" to you)

You should be allowed to lose your temper and explain your reactions in a friendship and be forgiven...friends forgive. Have you spoken to her recently at all? This is your best friend of 7 years?

I feel frustrated for you because being AS is like being in a strange land with different rules and no rule book to follow...and then people get pissed you don't know the rules.

Do you go to any counseling for behavioral therapy? I know this will sound odd as well but perhaps your friend has her own issues internally as well? I have yet to meet one person in my life who has not sustained some sort of psychological trauma which alters their own coping skills. If your friend is willing to end a friendship after 7 years based on a misunderstanding it sounds to me like she has her own social ills to deal with.

This person is not your friend.-let her go.

"partner" of seven years? -nah, being abusive conflicts with the rule of friend, therfore, there was no friend, being a friend, is I imagine, a neccessary element to BEING your partner, she was NO friend, therefore she was no partner.

I don't know why you are trying to rationalize her behavior-codepending her abuse of you.



It's ok for you to let bad things, people, go on their way.
You are not holding the world on your shoulders.
People make thier own decisions-You gave her enough chance.
Cut ties. (if you need any help on how to do this 'cogniatively' let me know)

It's been 7 years.
That is a good clue that she is not repairable.
If you want to waste YOUR LIFE rolling round in this washing machine, go ahead, but note, the washing machine will always be the washing machine. It is not all of a sudden going to say turn into a dryer.

Survey Says: sh*t can her for purposes of self preservation.
There's a million probable 'friends'-but only one you. Are you worth it.
When you learn to say yes to yourself you will cease to have the friendship problem, you may be a fair bit more lonely for a while, paitence and the cream rises to the top.


Good luck.
No Body should walk on you.