Aspies, Rigid Thinking and Brain Development

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Here’s the background to my question: Aspies apparently have trouble with flexible thinking and can be rigid. I have recently observed this in my own son who is almost twelve (in sixth grade). One example was he observed an adult friend of ours do something which was mildly against the rules. Because he saw her do this, he says she can’t be trusted, that she shouldn’t be a delegate in our HOA association and he feels compelled to tell everyone (I advised him against this).

Another example is that he has suddenly become beset, to extreme meltdown, because he remembered I once (seven years ago) out of anger (at my husband, not him) tore a book. Because I tore a book (we all love to read in my family and value books), I was no longer his loving mother (not sure if he considers me that, anyway) but an “evil hag,” an evil old woman Evil Evil Evil. Why did he have to have someone like me as a mother.

What makes me sad (distraught, even, as I am in grief about my son right now) is not the book, but to see how rigid his thinking is, almost (in the case of the book) to the point of delusion. (He could not be talked out of his belief that I was evil with rational counterpoints or with empathy, etc.)

A NT child might have had a memory of seeing a parent or friend do something that was wrong, but also have been able to hold in his/her mind (or heart) all the love, the good things that person did. That type of child might have phrased it about my friend or myself, something like I know you do a lot of nice things for me but. . . or I know D is a pretty nice friend and basically a good person—but what she did was wrong and it bothers me.

Okay, almost to my question: When children get to about fifth grade, abstract thinking starts to kick in. I remember, for example, in sixth grade being utterly fascinated with that tree falls in a forest question. In fifth grade, I could almost literally feel my brain expand and I was even a bit cocky about it.
Question: Do some of you remember when you had your own fifth, sixth, seventh grade developmental brain spurt—that jump into abstract thinking? I have read on this site other parents talking about how their kids kind of hit the wall when they reached about this age (of twelve) in terms of their coping skills or keeping up with others. Do Aspies have trouble or not make that jump into abstract thinking? I very much want my son to have the kind of brain which can go at problems from many different angles.

When I read the posts on this site, I see much creativity, and humor as well as intelligence. Some of the older Aspies (ugh, I hate that word) seem so high functioning, empathic and also like they are managing the challenges of life impressively well, considering the additional burden of AS. I hope my son can do as well as some of you when he grows up.
Scribe

Everyone is going to be different of course, even NT normal kids. I was a despair to my foster parents at that age, as all I could manage was abstract thought. What you may consider doing is focusing less on his differences (he already "knows" you are disappointed in him for not being like everyone else, even if you are not) and focus that incredible attention on things he can do and do well. As he gains confidence along with maturity he may become more comfortable with shades of grey.

It sounds like your son needs the rules to be rigid and consistently enforced right now to ensure his world is stable. Perhaps there are a lot of other things that are uncertain in his environment.

He's probably at a good stage to be introduced to Newtonian physics where balls always fall down at a fixed rate and chemistry, where the elements always fit together a certain way. He will probably have little patience with Algebra with its nonsensical x & y variables, or English grammar with its odd "i before except after c, except for weigh and neighbor" rules. As he gets used to the scientific method it is likely he will start designing his own questions and before you know it: Abstract thought!

CDRhom Wrote: "It sounds like your son needs the rules to be rigid. . .right now to ensure his world is stable."


Thank you, CDRHOM. The above quote is particularly helpful. That is a wonderful perspective for me to consider (instead of taking it personally) when he is so adamently sticking to one rigid viewpoint.

Scribe

(Technical question. Would someone please tell me how to transfer a quote from a prior post. Thank you.)

Yes. "Abstract" is merely very complicated "Black and White". For instance, you tore the book. This of course to him is Black and White "bad" and therefore a reflection now on you (--what book did you rip up btw?). As I would understand it now in more complicated Black and White terms, you were angry. Anger is a building force which needs relief if it isn't to impede functioning. This is still a Black and White situation. You were angry. The chemical reaction in your brain required that some "release" be made. Thus, in anger the book was likely the closest thing to you, perhaps? And in a chemical rage, people are not thinking logically as this particular chemical does not work on the brain in that manner. Thus, you saw the book and acted. Quite Black and White.

But as I said, this is a very complicated Black and White, but with a good knowledge of human nature and the functioning of the brain, I really haven't found any situation I cannot reason through in such a way-- nothing which inevitably defies a Black and White scenario. This often keeps me from making inaccurate assumptions about people-- as long as I am not angry as well at the time, hehe.

But Aspies can be so different from each other. Some, like CDRhom mentioned of himself, are VERY abstract. Others, perhaps much like your son, are very concrete. And some are in between, perhaps a bit like myself when I was young. We have quite a range. Some Aspies, even with progress can remain quite literal or concrete-- I think in my interactions I am more prone to this. But it will likely be certain that your son will improve because the progressing of his environment will require him to progress as well. He might have to learn that which comes intuitively for others almost mechanically. But he will work to get there. And he will probably often be frustrated along the way. And by adulthood he still might be behind, maybe even only by a little, but that's the good thing about an Autistic Spectrum Disorder. We improve through learning.

I sometimes like to think of Aspergers as someone learning to drive a stickshift quite badly while NAs (my term for NTs) all have automatics. But after awhile, usually a person improves and learns how to drive stickshift. Sometimes almost imperceptibly so, so that you never notice they're driving stick until you see them on a hill or at a stop.

Hope that helps. It's essentially a waiting and learning game. You wait while he learns. And don't get too worried. Just help him with his questions and console him (however he prefers consolation) when he's had a rough day. Perhaps you, yourself, can learn how to explain things very concretely (I'm sure you're already quite used to this) so he can get a better grasp of concepts, etc. You can work on being an unbiased translator of the world around him. Or point him to the books where he can learn. Help him observe. Watch. Study humans. Observation and contemplation/assessment are invaluable learning tools.

Just try to keep his environment as calm and predictable as you can, give him the space he needs, help to provide the things he enjoys, and maybe even replace the book you tore up in the first place. If you haven't already.

You know it is normal for boys to be rigid don't you? That is why boys are for science and girls are for homemaking.

Many people will take offense at that statement. In today's world, common sense about people is the enemy. People are taught that technology means they are no longer human and don't have to pay attention to any of those old human wisdoms.

I read that you are upset about the boy. I am bothered that you appear to have put him in this box that says "Aspergers - he acts weird and needs help". I know lots of regular guys that said awful things to their parents. I don't think they even invented the word Aspergers yet. They used to call that normal child behavior.

To get back to son's and men being rigid, it is true. Men are supposed to be rigid, women are supposed to be fluid. That is how they are built. It might help you to read any Chinese Medicine book that talks about internal vs external parts of the body. External = hard = man. Internal = soft = women. This is common sense because it corresponds to sexual characteristics. Man = hard, women = soft.

As men and women go thru life, they trade with each other so that they become balanced in old age. Sex and interpersonal interaction is about the man giving hard to the woman to balance out her softness. It is about the woman giving softness to the man so he balances out his hardness.

That is why young boys and teenagers are such trouble. They are 95% hard. They are not old enough for the balancing process with females to have taken place yet. I don't think that would have anything to do with your son being described as "aspergers". I think he just has a young hard normal boy brain. When he gets older, after exposure to females at school and elsewhere, then he will develop the fluidity you describe in a normal way.

I know none of that helps people who hurt because of an incident. If I was upset and someone talked to me, I would still be upset until I was done being upset. When you are over the emotional sting, consider reading the Chinese Medicine book. It can give you insight into your son, yourself and your entire family.

Happeh, I am female and quite good in science, thank you.

I'm also horrible at what you call "homemaking".

Last edited by Sophist on 17 Nov 2005, 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Happeh, I believe your thinking is very backward, Victorian, and out of date.

It is you that is sticking people in boxes by suggesting that men are only capable of doing one type of job, and women are only capable of doing another type of job.

Then again it fits in with your theory that all women must be subversive and obedient to men.

My thinking is very literal and very black and white. With age (I'm 29) I've learned to be a little more flexible and accept grey areas, with varying success depending on the situation. It's definitely a learning process though, more flexible thinking doesn't come naturally to some of us. I have to consciously remind myself to look at things from different angles and understand the big picture. At this point I can usually do it if I *remember* to shift my thinking in that direction, but a lot of the time I forget and default to my natural black and white and extreme literalness. I know how much my way of thinking frustrates other people (and even myself) so I can see where you're coming from as a parent. Hang in there - we aspies need a lot of patience and help sometimes.

Yes, of course. Two ways.

1) Over the posts, in the right hand corner, are some buttons. Clicking on the "Quote" button will open a window with that post in quotes. Delete the part of the post you don't want to quote. Add your post after the quote, and submit.

2) type (without the spaces) this [ quote ] add the part you are quoting and close by typing this [ / quote ] Type your post and submit.

If you want to add a name like I did, start with (again, drop the spaces) [ quote = username ] . Use the normal [ / quote ] to end quote.

I liked Sophist example. It just takes more time to get there.

BeeBee

during my first marriage my ex-wife got jealous over me reading ( used to read books allot at and before that time) and a book got ripped in half, it was my out and my escape when I got over loaded on things, she let me have less and less peace of mind when I read till the book incident, after that for the next 12 years or so I hardly ever read a book again, its like something snapped and a part of me gave up. now I am in a new relationship and she likes to read books and she has been trying to get me back into doing the same, I am starting to take interest again in books, for the longest now its just been Internet reading for me. I would suggest giving him a book that the child would really enjoy and would be of the child's likings, then let the child have the space and time to read that book, perhaps more then one even, but do not make it a control issue.

I can't say I've ever been described as "soft" either...

*smiles*

It is seldom personal with us. It comes into our head and out of our moths with little or no filtration or ulterior motive. It is a trait that infuriates some, who say we have no tact. and is endearing to others, who find us wonderfully genuine.

I am glad it helps you both.

Thank you for all the interesting replies. I missed them during the day because every time I tried to log on, WP came out "white."

The name of the book was Mirages of Marriage, and every time my husband and I had a disagreement, he would quote to me from that book to tell me how I wasn't following the recommendations of this book (such as no "cross complaining"). I have to admit I tore that book with gusto (though later replacing it for him).

My son has written his side of the story (and he especially enjoyed all the challenges to my perspective that you posted). He is not quite finished and will post tomorrow (under my name). So stay tuned.

Scribe

What a foolish thing to say! There is NO LOGIC nor truth behind such a sexist and offensive remark!! !

*************************
Scribe,
I am AS, and I have a hard time trusting a person when I find that they are dishonest. My motto has always been if a person lies to me once, they will do it again. I dont know if that has to do with being AS or not. I have a difficult time with the "grey areas" when it comes to wrong and right. I have always thought of the Law as an absolute. When I have seen someone break the law, I find it difficult to trust that person again. I have a few co-workers that have cheated on spouces, and have told me so. I dont trust them anymore. I would imagine the same kind of mindset is at work with your son. I bet, that he sees books as an almost holy thing, and to damage one, well that might strike him as unforgivable. I was brought up to cherish (and never ever write in) books. When I got to college and my used texts had notes in the margins, well that blew me away! Needless to say, I eventually got used to it, and even highlighted some myself.
I think, perhaps, some of the unable to trust feelings you son has for that friend may be because his mind cannot determine emotions and non-verbal communication as easily as an NT can. And because of that, the only thing his mind has to use to process interactions is accual behavior. I dont know if that made ANY sense, but its my theroy on why I have a hard time with people.
It helped me to talk to someone, perhaps that might help your son too. I do wish you the best with it though.

Perhaps he can have his own screen name here, it may make it clearer for us who is posting. It will also make it easier should he choose to post in the Young people's forums while you may want to post in the Parent's forum as well. I cannot speak for the others, but I have difficulty with knowing whom I'm addressing in shared accounts.

It's funny that people refer to us as egocentric when according to Freud excessive moral rigidity (superego) and impulsiveness (id) are a sign of an underdeveloped ego.
A meltdown is essentially a miniature "mental breakdown". NT people usually experience and dissipate stress rapidly. I think they do this by switching tasks so that the one that is bothering them is offset by something relaxing. They reach the breakdown state through prolonged severe stress followed by a critical incident, after which they may need days or weeks to recover. Aspies and Auties, on the other hand, tend to experience more stress (due to our cognitive and social difficulties) and don't dissipate it very quickly through changes in task or thought pattern. Stimming provides both a physical outlet (ie: burning the adrenaline) and a mental focal point, but there are times when the stress accumulates too quickly. There is a point where the stress starts to feed on itself (the presence of excessive stress causes further stress) and the result is a meltdown. You can think of it as the mental equivalent of vomitting - it's an unstoppable response to an unmanageable situation during which we let all the stress out in one big purge. All you can really do with someone who's having a melt-down is try to keep them from hurting themselves (or others). It's better to avoid them in the first place. You and your son will both want to learn some relaxation techniques before he hits puberty as the stress in his life will only increase....
I don't recall exactly when the "falling tree" question was first posed to me but I always approached it as a question of physics, not metaphysics. It's abstract in the sense that we're not talking about a specific or even a real tree, but if the question has some deeper meaning then I missed it completely. It wouldn't be the first time I took something literally.