Have aspies past the egocentric stage

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Egocentrism

In psychology, egocentrism is defined as a) the incomplete differentiation of the self and the world, including other people and b) the tendency to perceive, understand and interpret the world in terms of the self. The term derives from the Greek egô, meaning "I". An egocentric person has a limited theory of mind, cannot fully "put himself in other peoples' shoes," and believes everyone sees what he/she sees (or that what he/she sees, in some way, exceeds what others see).

It appears that this egocentric stance towards the world is present mostly in younger children. They are unable to separate their own beliefs, thoughts and ideas from others. For example, if a child sees that there is candy in a box, he assumes that someone else walking into the room also knows that there is candy in that box. He implicitly reasons that "since I know it, you should too". As stated previously this may be rooted in the limitations in the child's theory of mind skills. However, it does not mean that children are unable to put themselves in someone else's shoes. As far as feelings are concerned, it is shown that children exhibit empathy early on and are able to cooperate with others and be aware of their needs and wants.

Jean Piaget (1896-1980) claimed that young children are egocentric. This does not mean that they are selfish, but that they do not have the mental ability to understand that other people may have different opinions and beliefs from themselves. With his colleague Barbel Inhelder, Piaget did a test to investigate egocentrism called the three mountains problem (Piaget & Inhelder 1948/1956). He put children in front of a simple plaster mountain range and then asked them to pick from four pictures the view that he, Piaget, would see. Younger children before age 7, during the so-called pre-operational stage, picked the picture of the view they themselves saw and were therefore found to lack the ability to appreciate a viewpoint different from their own. In other words, their way of reasoning was egocentric. Only when entering the so-called concrete-operational stage at age 7-12, children became capable of decentring and could appreciate viewpoints other than their own. In other words, they were capable of cognitive perspective-taking.

However, the mountains test has been criticized for judging only the child's visuo-spatial awareness, rather than egocentrism. A follow up study involving police dolls showed that even young children were able to correctly say what the interviewer would see. It is thought that Piaget overestimated the levels of egocentrism in children.

Egocentrism is thus the child's inability to see other peoples' viewpoints. The child at this stage of cognitive development assumes that their view of the world is the same as other people's, e.g. a little girl covers her eyes and says 'mummy you can't see me now, can you?'

What do you think? and I havnt meant this as an insult.

Just to start the discussion...

Aspies are generally viewed to be self-centered and not egocentric, by wiring ... this is not to say the Aspie cannot be both, but the former is viewed as part of the autisitic condition, the latter is a trait that can exist with an NT or Aspie...

I think egocentric is a bad term to use for aspies, since you can't characterize the condition by piaget's notion because there are other things that defy the egocentric characteristics (i.e. devotion and concern for others). They just experience and process the world differently then other people, they put emphasis on other criteria in order of importance and downplay or are oblivious to others until if and when they learn it.

We tend to use ourselves to model others until we gain experience, but that doesn't mean we exclusively do so regardless of whether we have experience or not. It still can be hard for us to determine how others will act or behave without sufficient evidence, or be able to read others emotions and intentions. Personally I think aspies simply develop such skills in a different way then other people.

Also I don't think it is so much the egocentrism, but the lack rationality in others that aspies find so disturbing. Many aspies reason their way through things, and are quite annoyed that others don't. There's too much emphasis on emotions in other peoples decision making process and not enough on seeing that emotions and inward preferences and prejudices need to be carefully scrutinized. Many other people simply do not do that, which we can find pretty baffling.

Nt's are generally not referred to being as egocentirc. Children are given that this is a normal stage they go through. Given that AS is a developmental disorder I thought they may be linked.

I agree but it is true that people on the autism spectrum - the prime problem being is difficulty from seeing another's perspective. This is core of ecocentrism.

A person with AS might have an impaired TOM, but not a complete lack of one.

They understand that people have different beliefs, they understand that people have seperate lives, and the majority of adults with AS can pass the Sally-Ann test.

Or, it could be that their theory of mind is really no more impaired than other people, but they are more honest about it. In case you haven't noticed, NTs aren't always right in their perceptions of other people or what they're thinking.

I think it's has more to do with lack of experience then egocentrism, we find it difficult to see others points of view, because we have to learn or be explicitly told - they do not function like we do... we don't get this natively, it's just something we have to learn. it's not that we can't see things from another persons perspective - we find how they process the world just baffling, which is misinterpreted as "unable to see other persons point of view", the difference is not understanding that - they experience the world entirely differently.

Which is why it can be difficult usually for the aspie to accept - because other people function and experience the world so differently. It really comes down to a difference in physiology, and how one determines what is relevant.

Guilty as charged. I still find it hard to believe that something obvious to me isn't obvious to everybody else. I used to put that down to low self-esteem (I'm stupid, therefore if I know a thing, it must be common knowledge to everybody else). But there have also been loads of times when I've seen details that nobody else has noticed - sometimes quite important details - and I used to put that down to superior perception abilities. Autism fits the facts much better - I doubt that my self-esteem is particularly low, and it seems pretty clear that although I can impress people with what I see that they don't, equally they also see a lot that I miss.



I agree the visuo-spatial thing rather invalidates his test. When I was about 10 years old, I was floored by a school lesson in which we had to draw a map of the school "upside down" (i.e. North on the map was pointing to South in reality), but I don't recall much evidence for being unable to divine the feelings of others - it took me a long time to discover the importance of that skill, and I still find it a very woolly and precarious thing to do, but I get the impression that society as a whole barely addresses the feelings of others, except perhaps in romantic fiction. I feel that I'm at least reasonably skilled at it, though I can't do it quickly or to order - not yet anyway.


Maybe I'm a bit thick today but I can't for the life of me see anything to feel insulted about. Thanks for starting this interesting thread

We are delayed in development (hence developmental disability) but we can slowly learn to see the perspectives of others. I was once a member of a "Perspectives" group for AS and we worked on this and I saw improvement in everyone.

I just think it's hard to get into another person's perspective when our own perspective/experience is so difficult to deal with. It's often fragmented and overwhelming. There's not much energy left over to try to jump into another person's shoes.

To be perfectly honest, I've never had a debilitating problem with TOM. When I was a little kid and very weird I passed the Sally-Anne test easily. My problems are more with not understanding social rules, and giving off strange social vibes (my facial expressions are unusual, for example). The only thing TOM has given me problems with is with some emotional aspects, but I can put myself in anyone else's shoes if I approach it logically. The logic leads to emotion; it just takes a few more moments for me to get it.

However, I have met Aspies with really big problems with this. For example, a good friend of mine saw me spill scalding coffee on myself and didn't think anything of it because he didn't feel any pain himself. (He also can't detect sarcasm one bit.) But that doesn't mean he doesn't care; he just is clueless. So I think egocentrism in Aspies is often true in the psychological sense, but not the colloquial sense (i.e., selfish, cruel).

i know I am.
i have done enough therapy and group work to know i am. i have received feedback from others that i am. I monologue but struggle with verbal comprehension. that really says a lot.
and i certainly do not find it offensive or derogatory that i am.

Egocentricity can be problematic dialectically - ofcourse.

however, i would question that i have a normal "self" - see my thread from weeks ago -- as it seems to me my "self" is in fact a series of special interest and fragmentary intensities.
that would prbably make me even more egocentric.

it is my view egocentricity also operates as a drive and a catalyst for action.

most creative people HAVE to be egocentric in their pursuits, at very least.

Last edited by millie on 13 Feb 2009, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The ego of an Aspie is continually battered by lack of validation or reinforcement or reciprocation from the outer world. Withdrawing into one's own perceptions is a natural result. Also, because logic, rationality and desire for honest truth rule Aspie tendencies and values, the fluctuating emotional social status hierarchy preoccupation of NTs makes their perceptions look less right, less solid, less considered, less intelligent, less real.

I can easily put myself in somebody else's shoes, and can have intense accurate empathy, but I no longer try or WANT to, because I feel most other ppl's motivations and values are just plain wrong and corrupt and I don't want to be contaminated by what I consider their gross, base and evil nature. I don't want to become like them.

One benefit of realizing I'm an Aspie is the sudden freedom to relax, laugh and just be myself, let myself indulge my ego and enjoy it. Spent my entire life serving others, an amazing life of self-abnegation, self-annihilation, and lately I've changed to All About Me, and it's refreshing, fun, full of discovery. Being egocentric is a blast! Of course I'm alone and am not inflicting this on any other person so it's harmless.

A major component to my attitude is that I meditate and live by teachings that agree 10000000% with my Aspie nature. It is as if God made me an Aspie to be better suited to yoga and meditation and finding Him. With that comes surety and confidence, a lot of compassion, peace, joy and a natural desire to be alone to fully enjoy the companionship of God.

BTW, where can I see / take this Sally-Anne test? Never heard of it. What does it tell you? Link please!

The Sally-Anne test is a basic way to test Theory of Mind.

"This is Sally, and this is Anne".
"Sally puts her marble in the basket, and walks away."
"Anne takes the marble, and puts it in the box."
"When Sally comes back, where will she look for her marble?"

The idea is that NT children over the age of 5 will typically answer "Basket"
While autistic children will answer "Box"

i cannot understand the sally anne test. i try and try and try to and i go into frazzle and do not understand.
i cannot even think it through, which scares me a bit actually.

Marked egocentricity is a symptom of ASDs. It's written all over clinical sites.

It's generally seen in AS, rather than Kanner's, as those with the former tend to interact more with people.

I get mad often because I assume that others should know what I am feeling or thinking.. I struggle with that one.