Do women really understand guys as much as they think?

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DELETED - for some reason this got posted twice

Last edited by ELLCIM on 24 Dec 2005, 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

When I say that women are far more indecisive than men, I mean more specifically that women have this tendency to complain about certain men being "too forward", and we end up with the classic scenario of girls blocking me on MSN and acting like I'm some nuisance. But then when other men are also forward and tell them they're hot, the same women jump all over them and boom, instant relationship. Make up your friggin minds ladies! Either you want someone to tell you you're hot or you don't!

The problem I see with men who label themselves as 'nice' is: they think that's a qualification to begin with. It's like saying you have freckles, then complaining you don't get women because of your freckles and not the fact you're a self-absorbed coward who doesn't know who he is or what he wants.

I'm not going to claim to know how women (or men for that matter) think, so I'll just delete this long diatribe I just wrote on the subject

You might try here:

http://theabsolute.net/misogyny/zubaty.html

I can't rail on self proclaimed 'nice guys' too much because I did think like that for a minute a few years back and while I was a bit more self-absorbed back then I think it came from being fed the wrong orientation to the realities of life than it did cowardice per say. When someone's raised on the idea that being a good person should pretty much insure a good life (its not something people don't directly say but there's heavy implications of that) they're not really being fed the right orientation to the dating scene or the realities of the human condition at all - that can be a pretty hard lesson to come to grips with after so many years of being taught otherwise about people.

You do have the guys who try to suck up to women, listen to their problems, and hope it'll get em somewhere. That's definitely not the the right attitude to have but at the same time I think that its far fewer than the majority who are wittingly or unwittingly being conievers like that and hopefully much of anywhere past highschool they've already learned their lesson.

This is where women are indecisive again. They get into a relationship where their boyfriend treats them badly, and they whine and complain about how they're being abused and so forth. They always say that they want a nice, caring guy. But then they get offered a guy like that and they won't take him, and they take the druggie who has been expelled from school. Then they wonder why they get killed. In the city I live in, there have been two young women murdered by ex-boyfriends over the past 26 months. They wouldn't have been murdered if they had used some common sense and gone for the nice guys they continually say they want.

It is going to take massive education from a very young age to educate women that they should avoid losers and go for the nice guys. Maybe it's time that parents get involved in the dating scene again. I know I'd have a girlfriend by now if this were 1955.

If women only took the nice guys that they continually say that they want, instead of working to find the sh*ttiest guy they can find, then I would have sympathy for them. Until then, I can't have much sympathy for a lot of women, for they say they want a guy like me then they go get a loser who doesn't treat them well.

I have very, very little trust in women in general. I've been burned so many times that there are very, very few that I have any trust in. Otherwise, I don't believe anything they say unless it is backed up scientifically (such as saying the sky is blue).

The other issue is that males that "do the right thing", based on religious teachings and/or morals for instance, don't get anywhere. It is pretty contradictory that God told us to "be fruitful and multiply", yet we're supposed to "love thy neighbour"? When I love my neighbour, I get treated like trash.

Maybe there's too many nuclear plants in Ontario.

LOL, educating women on nice guys? WTF?!

Screw you! Women weren't put on this earth to like you. If they don't like you, then tough beans.

Wow, bitter bitter bitter, what can I say?

I used to be terribly naive and it took me a while to realise life isnt a disney cartoon. I've now got this sorted out. I am still generally a nice guy but only because i now want to be nice and it serves me well to behave nice when this is being reciprocated, not because it is my nature and the only way i can operate.

Women do need to be educated about "nice guys", because there is something that they are getting that tells them to avoid them, and a guy with AS is now every girl's worst nightmare. Why, I don't know - I operate on logic, and the things women do defy all logic. It is a basic human right to be liked by others, including those of the opposite sex. Every man has the right to be liked by a woman, and every woman has the right to be liked by a man. It isn't "tough beans" - it's not my problem anyway. If they don't like "nice guys", then that's their problem, not mine. They are making a choice. I'm living with AS and don't know any other way.

Yeah, I am very bitter and cynical about women. Like I said, I've been burned many times, only to see the women go into relationships where they are utterly disrespected.

If they want a relationship where they are actually respected and loved, and not treated like a sex object or something else R-rated, then they know where to go, whether it be to me or one of my guy friends. But something makes them avoid what they want and they decide to be treated like objects.

One day, "nice guys" will rise up and inherit the earth.

And we'll be a happier place. The murder rate will drop, and florist companies will be a good investment. Women will come to accept it because they won't have a choice.

I would have to agree with you whole heartedly. 9 times out of 10, women seem to prefer the bad guy who treats them like dirt. I'm not blaming the situations and problems on the women themselves but in large part, you end up in the situation you are in because you allow it to happen. You end up in an abusive marriage or relationship with an abusive man because you picked him. once you pick him, it may be difficult to get out of said relationship, but women like "bad boys". The same can be said for men who get cheated on because they attempt to turn a whore into a housewife. We all want what we don't need and need what we don't want.

David DeAngelo mentioned how he had a girlfriend do that and how he didn't get it then but he does now. The problem is that their physical attraction and the only way to light most of em up is being mysterious, exiting, dangerous, all that alpha male type stuff. Nice just falls flat and its almost depressing (unless the guy knows how to do the opposite of what they tell him to do at the right times, be cocky with em, and make that kind of tension). It's just one of their inherent needs and being what it is, it's saddening that our culture hides that even more disturbing that even in Dave's book he mentioned - many women don't want you to know this because its a power card in their deck. Just like the reason that the divorce rate is so high and one of my friends telling me that in the last 5 years a study said that 3/4 of divorces were brought on by women, somethings really wrong with our society when we can't address that men and women REALLY are different and do have different needs in relationships because its politically incorrect to do that. The more I see this as well, the more it really seems to just suck the value out of human life when ego walks all over existential needs - that's a dark picture and its one I have a hard time getting lost in my ego over and forgetting about (probably because I've had that kind of life where my parents are still together, having problems but believe in working it out, and that's not what I'm seeing from a lot of people in my generation or society at large even).

Aaah yes, David DeAngelo...I guess his website is a common destination for male Aspies. (For some reason his action-packed newsletters stopped coming to my e-mail account a few weeks ago... )

Anyways, I think what we have seen through the womens' liberation movement is that they now hold most of the cards when it comes to relationships. They have this stupid ritual they go through with every man (DeAngelo calls it "testing") to determine how bad they are, and then they pick the worst guy they find. Guys don't have any choice anymore about what women they get to have. I believe most women are cruel and just like to make deserving guys feel bad about themselves (hence why they become "wusses", as DeAngelo calls them) by crawling all over morons with no future or contribution for society. So, while I'm wondering why 56 girls won't go out with me (that's just a random number), those girls are all off in drug lord houses, and the drug lord is constantly joking around and not taking the girl seriously. The girl is sucked in because they CRAVE humour (something I don't have much desire for in a relationship, because I think it is a far too shallow component of a relationship). After 24 months the girl suddenly decides they want to change drug lords in a typical female whim, and after a few months of stalking and failed restraining orders, the girl gets shot and killed in her apartment, the story makes the national news, and womens' groups start complaining again about how men are causing so many problems for women. Just look at what has gone on in Canada since Marc Lepine shot and killed a bunch of women at a university in Montreal in 1989. Women certainly have every right to be upset at men for these things, and now many are speaking out against male violence against women. We have shelters to protect women who are being abused. However they also need to take a look at themselves and understand that they make themselves vulnerable by going out with these losers. These losers are easy to spot, and nice guys are also easy to spot. There would be a far lesser need for womens' shelters if women didn't just blame men for abuse; they wouldn't be abused if they went out with the nice guys.

Women want to be treated well and they want excitement - I believe DeAngelo said this. However, there are few, if any guys that possess both traits, with the main exception being males involved with dramatic and musical arts, which is not me. I am catergorized as a nice guy - I send Christmas cards to them, for example. But, I'm not exciting, no matter how much I believe I am (the self-fulfilling prophecy does not work). Likewise, any guy I know that is exciting is not nice at all - ranging from talking back at their bosses to putting handicapped people down to selling heroin in downtown Toronto. Fortunately, some women only expect an extremely high sense of humour and not the illegal stuff to be exciting, but those guys tend to be either not nice or they're the artsy breed that give women the best of both worlds.

In conclusion, an overlooked component of reducing male violence against women (and men definitely must be held accountable for their actions) is educating women on which men they should be seeking out, and which ones to avoid. Women need to take steps to protect themselves BEFORE they're in a relationship.

It's a win-win situation. Women are treated with respect, and the men that deserve to be respected are respected by women and not just thrown away because they're "too nice".

(If anyone is wondering why I am so passionate about this subject, it is because the daughter of a deceased teacher from my old elementary school was brutally murdered a year ago by an ex-boyfriend who had apparently been stalking her. The family had already dealt with the death of the teacher less than a year earlier, due to a heart attack, and then the daughter was killed. I had met the daughter at the teacher's funeral - ironically just blocks from the future murder scene. Similar crimes have played out both in this city and elsewhere in North America over and over, and my proposal appears to be the one solution that has not yet been tried. Probably never has been tried since it wouldn't be "politically correct" to even SUGGEST that women have a responsibility to prevent violence against themselves.)

DeAngelo keep saying certain men "get it". Get what?

Well if you havent got it by now, you probably never will.

That kinda reminds me of a funny more recent story in my life. That same friend I mentioned who's wife was running arround on him and is in the process of getting a divorce also started dating another girl about 2 months ago. She seemed real nice, seemed like she had her head together, the only thing that really made me nervous about her in terms of their relationship is she seemed so wowed by him (he has a sportbike, rides it a lot, does a lot of tricks, is good with martial arts, great with people, considerate on the other side of being a smartass, and he's great at talking to women like her looks or sexuality mean anything to him - on top of that kinda cracking on their dorky angles so he's one of those guys who as 90% of the DeAngelo stuff right off the top). What usually scares me is when someone isn't keeping it real like that, no matter how cool she seemed in this case, I really had a feeling that the relationship would be done after that shock and awe wore off because it just didn't seem like it was on good grounds from her end - we tried to get her to just chill with us on a normal level but it was slow going for a while. Eventually she did, she'd pretty much gained our trust, and things seemed to be going well.

Something really wierd though started happening to her at work. One of her ex-boyfriends who was 30, had taken her to California, and was real freaky-obsessive over her started messaging her phone calling her a dirty slut, whore, and all kind of nasty stuff. My friend helped her set up her phone so that number was blocked, he's usally real good at being the kind of boyfriend who'll go there and shake the guy up but the same time from a lot of angles I guess it didn't seem appropriate for the situation (she has 2 huge brothers, the guy hadn't threatened any physical violence, etc.) - turned out the guy did end up quitting once she complained to the management about it. Out of nowhere a few weeks later she ended up breaking it off with him and saying she needed some time to just back away and think things over. Funny thing was she was on myspace.com and we saw that the guy who'd been giving her problems was in her top 8 friends list. As of now, as far as we know, they're back together. I'd try to figure out what's behind that but there's way too many variables I just don't know. Still, I think it just goes to show that trying to think rationally on this stuff is the best way to get completely lost on understanding em.

If a woman does wanna date a guy who's gonna at the most benine be a douche and at worst put her in the ground, I really don't think there's a hell of a lot anyone can do to stop em from making that choice. I've also noticed myself that the guys who really do well are the ones that aren't going anywhere in life but not so much because of that but because their priorities are socially-geared almost entirely and they work to gain status through social channels rather than MBA's and PHD's. When you mention the 'bad' types they love, I really think its because those guys are far more emotionally like them than we are - so are a lot of gay guys and we have a real strong suspicion that the guy my friend's wife left him for, while he doesn't act it, there's definitely enough there where the math adds up. Just like we prefer women who are grounded to reality the way we are, far more women are wired like women and looking for guys who are wired like women. Guys being wired like women and topping that with lots of testosterone usually lends them to dating jocks, mr. cool types, sometimes guys who work 24/7 on outward flare and can flip a cigarette up in the air and land it in their mouths (they love stuff like that), and on the more unfortunately they often love the types of guys who are usually in and out of prison. Dave DeAngelo says guys 'get it', well, some more naturally than others...