A girlfriend is not a lost puppy.

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goldfish21
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18 Sep 2018, 11:48 am

rdos wrote:
NorthWind wrote:
rdos wrote:
The overrepresentation of asexual itself needs to be explained. Being truly asexual means not reproducing, which in turn means "dead end". Therefore, NDs cannot have higher levels of true asexuality because that would mean neurodiversity would cease to exist, which we know didn't happen. Therefore, this needs to be explained in some other way.

Not every individual in a population will have only adaptive traits and not every phenotype that persists needs to be beneficial but only the genes that cause the phenotype need to be stable in the population.

For example, in some regions sickle cell anemia occurs and is relatively stable from one generation to the next. It's a severe illness. The reason why it persists (albeit it's not extremely common) is not that people with sickle cell anemia reproduce as well as the general population but that people heterozygous for the gene that causes it when you are homozygous for the sickle cell allele, have an advantage via being relatively immune to malaria.

Autism or any other condition that could be seen as ND is not a monogenic trait. It is likely at least partly genetic but caused by a combination of many genes and likely no single one of them has an allele that's necessary for being ND. Some alleles that may contribute to autism could be advantageous in combination with some gene-variants and disadvantageous in combination with others. That would make them persist in a population at a rate where the rate between advantageous to disadvantageous combinations that occur will be good (unless recent changes in environment make them maladaptive). But in that case there will be individuals that get a combination that's less favorable for their biological fitness and in some cases that could cause asexuality.

I'm fairly sure people with type 3 autism reproduce at a much lower rate than the average. I won't guess about type 1 autism and it may be hard to get exact numbers as the ones who cope best will be the ones least likely to be diagnosed. Either way people with any sort of condition don't necessarily need to reproduce as much as the general population for the condition to be stable within the population if individuals without that condition can pass on the relevant gene-variants.

Therefore severe genetic diseases that are monogenic and dominant traits are extremely rare, because they're rarely passed on and mainly occur by de-novo mutation.
Monogenic recessive diseases will be rare, but not necessarily extremely rare if heterozygosity is an advantage.
If a trait is polygenic it gets messy because there can be selection against some combinations and selection for others.
I'm not saying that every condition that's neurodiverse has to be maladaptive, but that a condition exists and persists doesn't prove that it isn't.


If asexuality was only common in diagnosed ASD, then your reasoning might be valid. That is not the case. Asexuality is just as high in NDs that are not diagnosable, and those contribute some 15% of the population.

I think a better explanation is that not liking one-night-stands and disliking having sex with many people outside of relationships, has never been a problem. For much of human evolution, it was illegal or morally wrong to have sex outside of a marriage/relationship, and contraceptives were not available. Thus, I would even claim that being able to plan reproduction was an advantage during much of our evolution, so asexuality never was a problem until fairly recently.

NorthWind wrote:
Sure, like anything else that can be used for surveillance it'd come with a risk. My point about making it measurable, if it existed, was purely about what would need to be done to make it subject to scientific research, not about what would be desirable for society as a whole.


I think a "side-effect" of mind-to-mind communication, detecting direction, would be a better candidate for scientific research. I already did some "measurements" based on this that has resulted in two places that I wouldn't know of otherwise. I also have detected when she leaves with the train in the morning, and I could pin-point this to a very specific one. Not to mention that we now end our morning walk at this specific train, and she tells me when it is time to head for the station (I don't have a watch with me).


Wrong. Marriage/monogamy are relatively new man made constructs. Humans have evolved to have multiple sexual partners to the point that males have a variety of different sperm cells that perform different functions, much like a football team. There are sperm that block other’s sperm, others that attack other’s sperm, and others yet that make a sprint for the egg - as the strongest, fastest, swimmer gets to procreate. Humans have evolved to bang away and have multiple sexual partners just like many animals & then it’s survival of the fittest when the best man’s sperm impreganates the egg while the others get blocked or killed off.



What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.


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XFilesGeek
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18 Sep 2018, 12:17 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
rdos wrote:
NorthWind wrote:
rdos wrote:
The overrepresentation of asexual itself needs to be explained. Being truly asexual means not reproducing, which in turn means "dead end". Therefore, NDs cannot have higher levels of true asexuality because that would mean neurodiversity would cease to exist, which we know didn't happen. Therefore, this needs to be explained in some other way.

Not every individual in a population will have only adaptive traits and not every phenotype that persists needs to be beneficial but only the genes that cause the phenotype need to be stable in the population.

For example, in some regions sickle cell anemia occurs and is relatively stable from one generation to the next. It's a severe illness. The reason why it persists (albeit it's not extremely common) is not that people with sickle cell anemia reproduce as well as the general population but that people heterozygous for the gene that causes it when you are homozygous for the sickle cell allele, have an advantage via being relatively immune to malaria.

Autism or any other condition that could be seen as ND is not a monogenic trait. It is likely at least partly genetic but caused by a combination of many genes and likely no single one of them has an allele that's necessary for being ND. Some alleles that may contribute to autism could be advantageous in combination with some gene-variants and disadvantageous in combination with others. That would make them persist in a population at a rate where the rate between advantageous to disadvantageous combinations that occur will be good (unless recent changes in environment make them maladaptive). But in that case there will be individuals that get a combination that's less favorable for their biological fitness and in some cases that could cause asexuality.

I'm fairly sure people with type 3 autism reproduce at a much lower rate than the average. I won't guess about type 1 autism and it may be hard to get exact numbers as the ones who cope best will be the ones least likely to be diagnosed. Either way people with any sort of condition don't necessarily need to reproduce as much as the general population for the condition to be stable within the population if individuals without that condition can pass on the relevant gene-variants.

Therefore severe genetic diseases that are monogenic and dominant traits are extremely rare, because they're rarely passed on and mainly occur by de-novo mutation.
Monogenic recessive diseases will be rare, but not necessarily extremely rare if heterozygosity is an advantage.
If a trait is polygenic it gets messy because there can be selection against some combinations and selection for others.
I'm not saying that every condition that's neurodiverse has to be maladaptive, but that a condition exists and persists doesn't prove that it isn't.


If asexuality was only common in diagnosed ASD, then your reasoning might be valid. That is not the case. Asexuality is just as high in NDs that are not diagnosable, and those contribute some 15% of the population.

I think a better explanation is that not liking one-night-stands and disliking having sex with many people outside of relationships, has never been a problem. For much of human evolution, it was illegal or morally wrong to have sex outside of a marriage/relationship, and contraceptives were not available. Thus, I would even claim that being able to plan reproduction was an advantage during much of our evolution, so asexuality never was a problem until fairly recently.

NorthWind wrote:
Sure, like anything else that can be used for surveillance it'd come with a risk. My point about making it measurable, if it existed, was purely about what would need to be done to make it subject to scientific research, not about what would be desirable for society as a whole.


I think a "side-effect" of mind-to-mind communication, detecting direction, would be a better candidate for scientific research. I already did some "measurements" based on this that has resulted in two places that I wouldn't know of otherwise. I also have detected when she leaves with the train in the morning, and I could pin-point this to a very specific one. Not to mention that we now end our morning walk at this specific train, and she tells me when it is time to head for the station (I don't have a watch with me).


Wrong. Marriage/monogamy are relatively new man made constructs. Humans have evolved to have multiple sexual partners to the point that males have a variety of different sperm cells that perform different functions, much like a football team. There are sperm that block other’s sperm, others that attack other’s sperm, and others yet that make a sprint for the egg - as the strongest, fastest, swimmer gets to procreate. Humans have evolved to bang away and have multiple sexual partners just like many animals & then it’s survival of the fittest when the best man’s sperm impreganates the egg while the others get blocked or killed off.



What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.


:cheers:


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18 Sep 2018, 12:44 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
... What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.
:cheers:
We're on to you, rdos! It's gonna take some really fancy back-pedaling for you to get outta this one, for sure!

:lol:



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18 Sep 2018, 1:34 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Wrong. Marriage/monogamy are relatively new man made constructs. Humans have evolved to have multiple sexual partners to the point that males have a variety of different sperm cells that perform different functions, much like a football team. There are sperm that block other’s sperm, others that attack other’s sperm, and others yet that make a sprint for the egg - as the strongest, fastest, swimmer gets to procreate. Humans have evolved to bang away and have multiple sexual partners just like many animals & then it’s survival of the fittest when the best man’s sperm impreganates the egg while the others get blocked or killed off.


I don't think so. That's how our primate ancestors worked, but they didn't have highly dependent children that needed protection for many years. It might be plausible that in some societies (most notable in Africa where we got the NT genome from), women in a tribe would rear children together, and this could allow for more competition between men, but this never was the norm in Eurasia.

goldfish21 wrote:
What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.


It's just you that have bought the incorrect "man the hunter" stereotype. It simply has no validity.



rdos
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18 Sep 2018, 1:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
... What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.
:cheers:
We're on to you, rdos! It's gonna take some really fancy back-pedaling for you to get outta this one, for sure!

:lol:


When people get out of arguments they start with mud slinging instead. Which means you lost.

BTW, we also proved the Neanderthal theory recently by using hierarchial clustering. :mrgreen: Link: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _admixture



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18 Sep 2018, 2:25 pm

NorthWind wrote:
As you said you don't have a watch with you, I'd assume that it is always the same time (if it's a completely random time a watch wouldn't help you). But you have an inner-watch. It's not failproof, but time of the day is perceptible with your actual senses that are proven to exist as well as your day and night rhythm. For about half a year I almost always woke up 7 to 1 minutes before my alarm-clock would ring at 7 am. For another person to tell me via some mind-to-mind connection there'd need to be another person who knows when I need to wake up, is awake at that time (if they can determine the time in their sleep then so can I) and cares to wake me up. But it seems more likely that it was just my day and night rhythm that woke me up, because I hated the sound of the alarm clock or that something perceptible happened at around 7 am that was too subtle for me to be consciously aware of.


Certainly. However, it started with me noting that she left at a certain time, and then a while later I could feel the train passing by. I noted this happened around the same time each day, and so noted the approximate time and checked with the train timetables. It turned out there was a train at that time. Lately, I've instead followed her to the station, and I know exactly when the train departs, and so I sit on a bench a few minutes or so before so I can see it pass by. We start walking already an hour or so before and take a little different path every day, but I always arrive within a few minutes before the train leaves the station. I simply notice when she heads for the station, and so I follow. We didn't "discuss" or inform each other of this, rather we agreed on it mind-to-mind.

We also decide from day to day where we would start (mind-to-mind), and then I will detect her in that direction before I arrive. Some days she will also come to my lunch place. In the afternoon we sometimes meet in the same city, and sometimes close to the sea. We also decide this mind-to-mind. So, as you can see, the direction sense and mind-to-mind communication are dependent on each other, and if one is real then the other also must be.

Also, I used the direction sense and a compass to find out the sea location. Initially, I used five locations in a half-circle approximately 10 to 50km away. I then plotted the direction on a map, and all the lines crossed in the same point with an error of less than a few kms. Later I also measured from 150km (and got 10km off), and from 300km with even less error. At 500km I could no longer sense her. The sea location has no visible signs that can be seen at a great distance.



goldfish21
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18 Sep 2018, 2:43 pm

rdos wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Wrong. Marriage/monogamy are relatively new man made constructs. Humans have evolved to have multiple sexual partners to the point that males have a variety of different sperm cells that perform different functions, much like a football team. There are sperm that block other’s sperm, others that attack other’s sperm, and others yet that make a sprint for the egg - as the strongest, fastest, swimmer gets to procreate. Humans have evolved to bang away and have multiple sexual partners just like many animals & then it’s survival of the fittest when the best man’s sperm impreganates the egg while the others get blocked or killed off.


I don't think so. That's how our primate ancestors worked, but they didn't have highly dependent children that needed protection for many years. It might be plausible that in some societies (most notable in Africa where we got the NT genome from), women in a tribe would rear children together, and this could allow for more competition between men, but this never was the norm in Eurasia.

goldfish21 wrote:
What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.


It's just you that have bought the incorrect "man the hunter" stereotype. It simply has no validity.


It doesn’t matter what you think. Facts don’t lie.


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18 Sep 2018, 2:49 pm

rdos wrote:
Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
... What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.
:cheers:
We're on to you, rdos! It's gonna take some really fancy back-pedaling for you to get outta this one, for sure!

:lol:


When people get out of arguments they start with mud slinging instead. Which means you lost.

BTW, we also proved the Neanderthal theory recently by using hierarchial clustering. :mrgreen: Link: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _admixture


Umm, there was no mud slinging. Now you just made up winning an argument. At least you did it with a single post this time vs a fantasy report.


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rdos
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18 Sep 2018, 3:11 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
rdos wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Wrong. Marriage/monogamy are relatively new man made constructs. Humans have evolved to have multiple sexual partners to the point that males have a variety of different sperm cells that perform different functions, much like a football team. There are sperm that block other’s sperm, others that attack other’s sperm, and others yet that make a sprint for the egg - as the strongest, fastest, swimmer gets to procreate. Humans have evolved to bang away and have multiple sexual partners just like many animals & then it’s survival of the fittest when the best man’s sperm impreganates the egg while the others get blocked or killed off.


I don't think so. That's how our primate ancestors worked, but they didn't have highly dependent children that needed protection for many years. It might be plausible that in some societies (most notable in Africa where we got the NT genome from), women in a tribe would rear children together, and this could allow for more competition between men, but this never was the norm in Eurasia.

goldfish21 wrote:
What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.


It's just you that have bought the incorrect "man the hunter" stereotype. It simply has no validity.


It doesn’t matter what you think. Facts don’t lie.


There are no "facts" when it comes to pre-historic human societies. These "facts" only exist in your imagination. As for historical times, we know pretty well that monogamy was the rule.



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18 Sep 2018, 4:08 pm

Monogamy is nice---but a concerted effort usually has to be made to preserve it.



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18 Sep 2018, 5:35 pm

rdos wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
rdos wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Wrong. Marriage/monogamy are relatively new man made constructs. Humans have evolved to have multiple sexual partners to the point that males have a variety of different sperm cells that perform different functions, much like a football team. There are sperm that block other’s sperm, others that attack other’s sperm, and others yet that make a sprint for the egg - as the strongest, fastest, swimmer gets to procreate. Humans have evolved to bang away and have multiple sexual partners just like many animals & then it’s survival of the fittest when the best man’s sperm impreganates the egg while the others get blocked or killed off.


I don't think so. That's how our primate ancestors worked, but they didn't have highly dependent children that needed protection for many years. It might be plausible that in some societies (most notable in Africa where we got the NT genome from), women in a tribe would rear children together, and this could allow for more competition between men, but this never was the norm in Eurasia.

goldfish21 wrote:
What I’m seeing here over and over is that you have wild guesses about how things work in relationships and biology and then you write a “report,” or post in order to give yourself the confirmation bias you need to argue an incorrect point.


It's just you that have bought the incorrect "man the hunter" stereotype. It simply has no validity.


It doesn’t matter what you think. Facts don’t lie.


There are no "facts" when it comes to pre-historic human societies. These "facts" only exist in your imagination. As for historical times, we know pretty well that monogamy was the rule.


Wrong again.

I was referring to modern day human sperm cells - and they didn’t evolve that way over the last several decades. Human reproductive cells have evolved that way over hundreds of thousands of years, regardless of what you choose to make up about evolutionary biology.


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goldfish21
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18 Sep 2018, 5:37 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Monogamy is nice---but a concerted effort usually has to be made to preserve it.


Which is why there are now many “monogamish,” relationships as well as open relationships.

After centuries of forced monogamy by the church and state & countless failed marriages, people have wised up to the fact that there are different ways to approach relationships.


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18 Sep 2018, 6:06 pm

This whole thread is mud slinging at the expense of people you perceive as behind or somehow lesser than you.

They could be ahead of you in any number of regards and how would you know? All I see is 15 pages of ignoring the good things about someone(s). Do I really care how attractive I am after sitting through this? No, I want no part of this cult*ure* whatsoever.


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18 Sep 2018, 6:28 pm

cberg wrote:
This whole thread is mud slinging at the expense of people you perceive as behind or somehow lesser than you...
You're wasting words -- rdos won't pay any attention to you.



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18 Sep 2018, 6:32 pm

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... o-further/

Just add this to the (interesting) debate going on here. . . .



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18 Sep 2018, 6:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
cberg wrote:
This whole thread is mud slinging at the expense of people you perceive as behind or somehow lesser than you...
You're wasting words -- rdos won't pay any attention to you.


No, I'm simply pointing out that you & goldfish are fixating on the negatives about a bunch of guys whose problem, so you say, is fixating on negativity.


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