05 Jun 2013, 12:27 pm
Thelibrarian
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05 Jun 2013, 12:30 pm
05 Jun 2013, 12:38 pm
Ann2011 wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Geekonychus wrote:
If one believes in the "Golden Rule", there's no need for chivalry........
Since chivalry centers around the golden rule, it begs the question as to why you have a bias against it. Would you care to explain what you've got against chivalry?
Obviously I can't speak for Geekonychus, but I would think that the difference between the two is that chivalry seems to be gender specific while the golden rule is equally applied to everyone.
Perhaps women will become more chivalrous . . . like, if a man is struggling with his shopping she could help him and it wouldn't be seen as disrespectful.
As much as I like to follow the Golden Rule as much as I can, I wouldn't try to help a man with heavy groceries in my area, the man would get angry and take it as I'm undermining his strength and they refuse to let me help. This has happened within my family too, the men shake off women help and get mad. That's how it is around here. Unless it's an elderly man, they don't mind.
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Thelibrarian
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05 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm
05 Jun 2013, 12:47 pm
cakey wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Since chivalry centers around the golden rule, it begs the question as to why you have a bias against it. Would you care to explain what you've got against chivalry?
Obviously I can't speak for Geekonychus, but I would think that the difference between the two is that chivalry seems to be gender specific while the golden rule is equally applied to everyone.
Perhaps women will become more chivalrous . . . like, if a man is struggling with his shopping she could help him and it wouldn't be seen as disrespectful.
As much as I like to follow the Golden Rule as much as I can, I wouldn't try to help a man with heavy groceries in my area, the man would get angry and take it as I'm undermining his strength and they refuse to let me help. This has happened within my family too, the men shake off women help and get mad. That's how it is around here. Unless it's an elderly man, they don't mind.
I have had experiences like this too. They kind of push you away and are offended. I'm hesitant too. Strange though when you think about it. I guess it gets back to knowing when help is actually needed.
One time I held the door open for an older lady who was bringing her bike into the building . . . She told me quite clearly that it would have been easier had I not done so."
OliveOilMom
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05 Jun 2013, 5:12 pm
Ann2011 wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Geekonychus wrote:
If one believes in the "Golden Rule", there's no need for chivalry........
Since chivalry centers around the golden rule, it begs the question as to why you have a bias against it. Would you care to explain what you've got against chivalry?
Obviously I can't speak for Geekonychus, but I would think that the difference between the two is that chivalry seems to be gender specific while the golden rule is equally applied to everyone.
Perhaps women will become more chivalrous . . . like, if a man is struggling with his shopping she could help him and it wouldn't be seen as disrespectful.
It really depends on how it's done. I would and have certainly helped a guy who was carrying too much stuff, etc. While I'd never go up and say something like "Oh, that's too heavy let me get some of that" I would say something like "Uh oh Hon, that bag's about to break, let me get that one so it doesn't all fall out" even if the bag isn't about to break. You don't offer the help like what he's doing is too much for him, you offer it because of some other reason. Just like I would get really mad if a guy said "You are too old to carry all that" or "You aren't strong enough to pick that up" or "That's too dangerous" and not accept the help. Even politeness has to be done politely.
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05 Jun 2013, 5:23 pm
OliveOilMom
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05 Jun 2013, 5:43 pm
Ann2011 wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
It really depends on how it's done. I would and have certainly helped a guy who was carrying too much stuff, etc. While I'd never go up and say something like "Oh, that's too heavy let me get some of that" I would say something like "Uh oh Hon, that bag's about to break, let me get that one so it doesn't all fall out" even if the bag isn't about to break. You don't offer the help like what he's doing is too much for him, you offer it because of some other reason. Just like I would get really mad if a guy said "You are too old to carry all that" or "You aren't strong enough to pick that up" or "That's too dangerous" and not accept the help. Even politeness has to be done politely.
This is so gracious . . . I wouldn't have come up with that. I notice that you used the word "Hon." This reminds me of an interaction I had yesterday at the store. The male customer and the female clerk were about the same age (older than me.) He called her "Honey" and she called him "Hon" later in the conversation. They didn't know each other, they just seemed comfortable with this. I would not have the chutzpah to call someone I didn't know by such an endearment. Maybe it's my age, but I know I would botch it up somehow.
In the part of Alabama I live in, terms of endearment like that are used a lot. They don't mean anything condescending, they mean that you are being polite and friendly. I've heard people from other places talk about how rude it is to use those or how sexist, etc it is to use them, and while maybe in those places it is, here it is just considered friendly. And when it's considered friendly by those who say them and those who they are said to, then that is how it's defined.
But yeah, I don't know anybody who would ever imply that someone couldn't do what they were trying to do, even if they obviously couldn't. That would be rude. Having another reason to help them is usually needed. An example is my mother. She won't let me take her trash down to the dumpster because "I CAN DO IT DAMMIT!" she says. Well, it takes her 30 minutes to do it and she's out of breath and all that, so while it's good for her to get some exercise, going to get the mail is better for her. So, I tell her that I'm going that way and have to get home so I'll take it, or that I saw Mr Arthur out there and want to see how he is, so I'll take it, or that I saw Mr Arthur out there and I know how he drives her crazy so I'll take it or whatever excuse. If I imply that my mother (or anyone for that matter) can't do something, they usually get mad and defensive. Not a good way to be polite, if you ask me.
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05 Jun 2013, 5:56 pm
05 Jun 2013, 6:03 pm
05 Jun 2013, 6:04 pm
OliveOilMom
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05 Jun 2013, 6:11 pm
appletheclown wrote:
Imply? Imply that my mom cannot take care of things herself by helping her? Yeah bullcrap. Most guys know when ladies do not want to be helped anyways, so I don't even know why I joined this thread, most people in real life do think I am polite anyways, so I actually realize this is probably not even a problem for me in the first place.
WTF? What I said wasn't even about you or anything you said. When I offer to take my 80 year old mother's garbage out to the dumpster about a block away for her, I do it because she can't do it herself very well! She doesn't like the fact that she can't so she will refuse if I don't say something to her for a reason that I want to take it up there instead of her. So, instead of saying to her what is the truth "It takes you 30 minutes to go there and back, you are out of breath for an hour when you get back from there, and you have to take a nap for the rest of the afternoon, so just let me run it up there for you, and you go across the road and get the mail." So, yes, I say something polite instead of what I really mean.
Why you turn what I said about my elderly mother who has COPD, high BP, a hip that was broken a few years back and mobility problems, and dizziness into something about what you might mean to your mother? I gave an example there because that was something I recently did. I also gave an example about a guy trying to carry too many sacks of groceries and what I would say so that I didn't seem to imply that he was carrying more than he could handle.
Nothing I said was about you, nor was it implied that it was. Also, as to why you "joined the thread", I would guess it would be to discuss the topic. That's usually why I post on a thread.
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OliveOilMom
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05 Jun 2013, 6:14 pm
appletheclown wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Imply? Imply that my mom cannot take care of things herself by helping her? Yeah bullcrap. Most guys know when ladies do not want to be helped anyways, so I don't even know why I joined this thread, most people in real life do think I am polite anyways, so I actually realize this is probably not even a problem for me in the first place.
I don't do things for people to imply sh**, I do it because I care.
I do things for people I care about and know, because I care but I do things for strangers because it's polite, and it's what you do. Same as everybody. I was taught manners, as were my kids. I may not know somebody from Adam, nor really care anything at all about them, but I'll be polite and do something for them if it needs to be done.
Because that's manners.
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PsychoSarah
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05 Jun 2013, 6:32 pm
OliveOilMom
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05 Jun 2013, 6:35 pm
PsychoSarah wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Imply? Imply that my mom cannot take care of things herself by helping her? Yeah bullcrap. Most guys know when ladies do not want to be helped anyways, so I don't even know why I joined this thread, most people in real life do think I am polite anyways, so I actually realize this is probably not even a problem for me in the first place.
I don't do things for people to imply sh**, I do it because I care.
I could argue that plenty of women become adept in the art of manipulation just to get men to do stuff for them.
That is entirely different from manners. I have never manipulated a guy into opening a car door for me or lighting my cigarette or standing up when I walk in the room. I don't know anybody who has. Those things aren't needed, or particularly desired, they are just manners. If a girl wants to become adept at manipulating guys into opening doors for them or holding their coats for them, they should just make it easy and open a charm school. That way they get paid to teach manners and don't have to be sneaky about it.
Two completely different things.
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PsychoSarah
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05 Jun 2013, 7:22 pm
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