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jloome
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20 Dec 2013, 6:52 pm

Willard wrote:
I don't think I fear it, I'm just used to it. I expect it. It seems a fact of life. Am I bitter about it? Oh yes, most assuredly.

But the truth is, if they did include me, it would only annoy me. Neurotypical interests and activities are so shallow and pedestrian.


Both true statements. The first points to the bitterness or depression of exclusion, because we're all biologically programmed to be communal for reasons of group security.

The second is why we're anxious; our desire to not deal with shallow interests collides with our subconscious need for communal security.

The latter, by the way, drives as much as 85% (depending on whose bull*** statistic we trust today) of neurotypical behavior. Neuroplasticity (cognitive chemical adaption) leads to people being addicted to beliefs and patterns of behavior that when challenged (by fraud, fact, reality, etc) lead to cognitive dissonance, the anxiety thrown up by a subconscious trying to force the individual to stick with the group. Why "group security?" Think about it: every one of these negative emotions is based in fear, our core survival instinct. A group takes away that fear when it accepts us; later, the brain will often take the chemical endorphin comfort of the group belief over the new conflicting information, whether it's right or not.

With Aspies, we refer first to the information presented, and are less inclined to be communal; this is largely due to our lower empathy (a product of communal interaction), caused by more self-reliance on intellect from an early age.



leafplant
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20 Dec 2013, 7:14 pm

^ this

if a person possesses any intelligence whatsoever, it cannot escape the observation of human nature that inevitably leads to the conclusion that the most dangerous situation on the planet is a group of humans



jloome
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20 Dec 2013, 7:18 pm

leafplant wrote:
^ this

if a person possesses any intelligence whatsoever, it cannot escape the observation of human nature that inevitably leads to the conclusion that the most dangerous situation on the planet is a group of humans


Also why we're top of the food chain. It might be evolutionarily unnecessary at this point, however; we seem to be, thanks to instant communication and the ability to check sources quickly, reaching a time when irrational belief is under assail. That in the long run will lead to an understanding of how much it influences the day to day.

Keep in mind, too, that on a purely positive basis, the group always adapts eventually to survive and accepts the new information; it just makes life hell for the bringers of said information for a few generations first. For examples, see: racism, homophobia, orthodox belief systems, political ideology and inactivism etc etc.



WaraFujiAng
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27 Dec 2013, 8:50 am

i_wanna_blue wrote:
jagatai wrote:
I assumed that I was so repulsive that my best option was to keep to myself.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

I notice with me i become so entrapped in my repulsiveness, that i push away people that might like me, the way i like them. when i gather feelings for someone i feel so afraid that this person will reject me, or treat me the way others treat me, that i almost reject them, before they might do the same to me. it hurts a lot when ordinary people treat you badly, but to have someone i care for "frown upon my defects" as mr. shakespeare puts it, i don't think i have the strength for.


I usually reject the ones that seem to like me the most, especially if they like me before even knowing anything about me. They always reject me once they realize I'm different. It's possible that they reject me because of my self-hatred. I don't want people to know that they hurt me so I act like I don't care what they think of me by unintentionally rolling my eyes or constantly looking at the clock, and sometimes that is what pushes them away. I didn't realize this behavior in myself until someone else treated me this way.



Marky9
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27 Dec 2013, 9:17 am

Willard wrote:
But the truth is, if they did include me, it would only annoy me.


Oh yes. In years past, I could usually fake it well enough to gain some small level of initial inclusion in a group. Thereafter I found that if I actually attempted interaction then I would be slowly eased out by being excluded from things.

Alternatively, other than initially enjoying observing and listening to the group's conversations, I found them boring because of lack of shared interests. I still desired inclusion, though, because of my basic primate social needs. As I was eventually excluded, I experienced the distresses of feeling excluded from a group that I didn't really enjoy anyway. (Cognitive dissonance much?)

So these days I more often take the advice that others have given me to " Think It Through ". When I experience the hurt of rejection I remember times when, even if I were included, I would eventually distance myself anyway out of boredom. This helps me emotionally cut to the chase and just let the whole thing go. It still hurts, but much, much less and for a much shorter period of time than before.


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leafplant
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06 Apr 2014, 7:39 pm

Marky9 wrote:
Willard wrote:
But the truth is, if they did include me, it would only annoy me.


Oh yes. In years past, I could usually fake it well enough to gain some small level of initial inclusion in a group. Thereafter I found that if I actually attempted interaction then I would be slowly eased out by being excluded from things.

Alternatively, other than initially enjoying observing and listening to the group's conversations, I found them boring because of lack of shared interests. I still desired inclusion, though, because of my basic primate social needs. As I was eventually excluded, I experienced the distresses of feeling excluded from a group that I didn't really enjoy anyway. (Cognitive dissonance much?)

So these days I more often take the advice that others have given me to " Think It Through ". When I experience the hurt of rejection I remember times when, even if I were included, I would eventually distance myself anyway out of boredom. This helps me emotionally cut to the chase and just let the whole thing go. It still hurts, but much, much less and for a much shorter period of time than before.


This has been my experience too, except now it doesn't even hurt to be excluded from the groups I am not enjoying being a part of - I just feel relief that I don't have to be the bad guy who is rejecting them.

On the couple of occasions when I have felt upset about being excluded by some groups only to overhear them and realise I really wouldn't have had fun at all had I stayed in the group, made me realise that the issue of exclusion is academic and I mostly don't give it much thought anymore.

I still hope to meet someone/s who'd I'd really hit it off with, but that seems to be less and less likely the older I get. I mean, everyone can be good for a short chat, but after that, either I or them or both lose interest.



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06 Apr 2014, 7:52 pm

I used to. Largely it was because I was mistaking social acceptance for overall worth instead of one aspect of worth and the ability to perform. Sadly, even some people close to me poisoned me with thoughts of needing to conform not only to manners but to arbitrary standards that were unhealthy for me. I was told by one former friend that I invited harassment by not sharing enough of my feelings even though I harmed no one, and repeatedly pressed to just learn to get along and empathize with his friends who'd gone after me.

Since I am the way I am, large scale social acceptance would be bizarre. I don’t have what other people want and they don’t have what I want. I socialize to learn from others or play and potentially bond to people I have a mental connection with, and other people socialize to feel loved, accepted, and to express themselves. At best I would gain a costly relationship that may need more maintenance and reassurance than I'm willing to give, and at best they'd gain the attention of someone who won't give them the reactions and comforts they want.

However, realizing this has freed me to enjoy surface interactions more because it's no longer a reflection of failure.



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06 Apr 2014, 10:26 pm

I do fear rejection which is the reason why I don't really PM people or send friend requests on Facebook or other forums or asking to be anyone's friend when I enjoy their posts. I have always been rejected. Told to go home, being told they can't play with me but yet would let other kids play with them, told to go away, trying to approach other kids only to be told to not follow them and not be liked. It was always better when kids approached me and started playing with me. I never understood this one bit but maybe I was doing something wrong because of the Asperger's. Now I am afraid of rejection. For a while I didn't trust kids so I always preferred to be alone than hanging out with anyone because in the past I would get told to do things only to get laughed at and teased and egg me to do something wrong and get me in trouble for it and also taking advantage of me. I did not want that to happen to me and get in trouble with the law which was my biggest fear so I didn't trust lot of people and still don't. Plus I find socializing boring anyway so why waste my time hearing boring topics and BS?


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06 Apr 2014, 11:29 pm

Me too. I hate it. As so someone else mentioned, it has always made me feel that I must be repulsive. Probably 4 years of my adult life I kept the mirrors in my bathroom covered so that I would not repulse even myself. [and I was actually quite cute, but I knew I was being nice to everyone, so I could not figure out what else it could be]



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06 Apr 2014, 11:55 pm

I was born with physical & mental stuff that no one understood which caused me to be bullied alot & I was so overwhelmed with school having parents on my back about doing my homework & learning to be more independent & self-sufficient that I just wanted to be left alone when I was home. I never felt like I fit in anywhere except on this forum & with my girlfriend & I'm OK with that because I sort of accepted not having friends & for the most part I rather do my own things; I love being with my girlfriend thou but I just don't have & never had a strong desire to be around people. I guess I sort of accepted the hand I was dealt & figured out how to make the best of it & enjoy it instead of trying to change it.


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Milanor
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14 Apr 2014, 10:34 pm

From personal experience, yes I do. I've had many times where I tried to make friends, but then failed for some reason and I also been bullied (won't get into that on this post since that's another long winded post all in itself). It always starts off like this, I try to make a friend or get to know someone, but they find me awkward (can't help it, sigh Aspergers rear's itself sigh) or just plain outright dislike me and even the "nice" people they are almost like fake friends or hoax friends, where they are nice in person, but later on or behind my back probably just start talking about all the negative aspects... Then comes rejection and exclusion. This is where I either end up indignant or very sad (or both). Then I say to myself, to hell with it, this is who I am and I can't help it and just accept the consequences and hence I become alone/isolated. Then assuming I was indignant and sad, I start to try to find a way to compensate my loss by going power hunting (being really good at something or slaving away at some aspect of a subject), which is also part of the reason of my talents today.

At the end of the day, I do still feel empty though, that I am missing something; I just can't be without any friends for a long time, while I did accept the solitary life, there are times where I wished I had more "real/true friends" rather than fake or hoax friends or enemies for the matter.



CJH123
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15 Apr 2014, 8:41 pm

All the time yes 100% its one of my biggest problems, and dose nit help my feelings or confidence as I really wanna soiclize with others and be able to join in, but due to worrys of thier views I fear they will reject me.