I can't work out where the boundary is...

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Honest Expression of Desires vs Manipulation

I'm waiting on the specialist assessment so I'm not completely certain if I'm Aspie but my friends and I will be very surprised if they say I am not. In this way, I don't know if this is confusion that NTs have too.

This has been bugging me lately. Long story short, my recent ex is maintaining almost constant radio silence and although we have mutual friends who could likely find out then explain why, nobody does anything. I suppose this is a way in which I don't understand social convention; if you see one person aching, why don't you talk to the other or if that other is also aching, why don't you let the first person know that's why they aren't speaking?

I've spent years trying to be a "good" person and I thought I understood what you should and shouldn't do. I'd become so frustrated when it would backfire. Now at least I know there's a possible reason.

Anyway, where is the line drawn in honest desires and manipulation?

It seems to me so far that there's not entirely much of a consensus. I have often been told I'm being manipulative. Once or twice I have been because I've seen no other way to deal with the situation at hand; that's at serious points, I don't enjoy being deceitful.

If I say I wish something would occur but also say that I know that it won't, understand cognitively the reasons why but not emotionally, and won't be annoyed that isn't happening... is that still bad?

Of course, I did have an angry emotional reaction when I realised they wouldn't do for me what I would do for them. I was already hurt and confused and I ranted. It was mostly irrational, I suppose, but on the other hand it goes against my "moral compass" and how I understood friendship. An NT on reddit told me I simply hadn't found the right friends, that hers all would do everything for each other. Is that likely to be true?

It applies to anything. When does stating what you want without expectation of getting it (the stage I'm at now) become manipulative? If you need to get it out, aren't you supposed to get it out? You're told not to bottle emotions. I certainly would like somebody to change their minds but I'm not so stupid as to think my expressing my thoughts would actually do that. They are entrenched in their social convention.

Maybe I am manipulative. If so, then I suppose I have to try to stop it. It's hard to accept the idea that I would not be able to speak honestly and I'd have to start holding things in again, bringing on harming behaviour.

I'm confused but apart from that I don't really know how I feel.

I only wish I knew you in person; I would be able to assist you better in this instance.

Everybody has to "work out" where the "boundary" is--it is part of being a human.

As long as you don't actively hurt people physically and emotionally, you're probably okay.

The only one it will be hurting is my unofficial carer. He's moving out in a year but will still help, although I think he should stay away and block me from social media. I don't have control when stressed.

I'm really sorry you are going through this. I went through something similar, except in my case several people were more than willing to stick their nose into things and tell me what my ex was saying about me behind my back, even when I wasn't asking. It was brutal. I also had other people acting very weird and standoffish about it. It went on for months like that, until I eventually had to cut off all contact with those people because I could not have any peace otherwise. I think that's probably what my ex wanted all along though, he wanted them to just be HIS friends. It does show you who your real friends are. Maybe you are better off not hearing any explanation? It doesn't make any more sense to me now than it did then.

I think the way some people look at it, when two people break up it's assumed that they are supposed to cut all ties with each other and act like the other doesn't exist. In fact they might act almost like you're doing something horribly wrong if you ever ask about the person, or try to talk to them, even just to say hello or ask how they are doing. That's just a foreign thing to me, so probably no explanation would ever make sense to me.

But what I am getting at, is I guess that's just how some people cope with things, by not talking about something and acting like it doesn't exist, and keeping their feelings all bottled up. So maybe they think they are helping you by not talking about it or telling you anything. Also some people will just want to stay out of anything that happens between a couple, because they don't want to take sides or get caught up in a conflict.




I think this goes back to that same fundamental difference between people, those who tend to bottle things up or deliberately cut off their emotions are more likely view it as manipulative if you let yours out freely. It's like they have some kind of control over their emotions, so maybe they can use or display emotions at will for a specific purpose? so they assume that's what you're doing too, if you get angry or upset.

My head hurts today so I feel like I won't be able to respond as well as I would like. I'm sorry you had to deal with gossips who were doing it for... I'm supposing entertainment, really. I've had sort of similar occurrences although I'd say that the worst was happening while those particular relationships were still "on". I was a lot younger then.

I can see where you are coming from and in previous cases of people (including platonic) walking off, it was true. If it weren't such a long and boring list I might have gone into it.

For this it feels different. I was a "serial monogamist" since I was young up until a couple years ago. This was immediately poly coupling which was great because quite a few relationships had to be ended because of that disagreement. Neither of us saw anybody during it, hadn't come to that stage for me and what he thought was a date with an old friend turned out to be a catch-up. Felt bad for him for that.

Anyway, the point being is that I am quite spiritual/occult (yes yes woo woo vibrations and smelly hippie, I know) and with him, being of the same persuasion, I found this deep connection of energy. The only possible other I had that with was the first person I loved and that was unspoken. In this it was out there in front of us and talked about regularly. So adding that to the activist, intellectual, and gamer areas, and my interests were fulfilled well and those connections were great. I've lost libido from meds but I never cared about that. I knew he did so I tried - maybe it wasn't enough. Also I realised to late that while he empathised with me, he never opened up.

So I suppose this is one of those times when you bump into a situation you never expected possible and then you lose it. It also ties in with my recent discovery of just exactly what Aspergers entails and how well it fits. That was a few months ago now and currently I'm still amazed and confused, trying to pull Aspie traits apart from other traits and those other traits from even more traits. Ow. My head. Point being, right now I have this gigantic urge to find out what I do and don't get, what correlates with others, etc.

That went on longer than intended.

As for the rest of what you said under that quote: That seems to be what I consider the sad truth to it. For my group, it's the fear of getting involved, seemingly. A few have said that now so I can except that in all but my carer, for some odd reason. It's horrible, I should accept it in him if I accept it for the others. I don't know why that's happening in my head. Going to try to stop it.




*slaps forehead* It's so obvious but I never thought of it like that before. I mean, I can rant on about how I feel that the NTs with no reason for it (like any mental disorder or trauma) are so insanely repressed and yet I didn't think to work out what that might mean in regards to how they viewed those who acted differently.

Also, I can think of several honest and open people who have often been labeled as manipulative who are actually really nice and many of the actual manipulators being kept in the friend group.

People are strange.

This was the same for me. I understand, I really do. This was the kind of connection I had always wanted, and it was totally devastating to lose it so suddenly, and to be completely shut out like I didn't exist.




Yeah...well I forget, I have to remind myself. To me it just feels natural to be the way I am, and to be kind of out there with my emotions. It's hard to understand how someone else could view it so differently, or read ulterior motives into things when I think I am just being myself.




Yep, they sure are. And I have seen things like that happen too.

Like in jobs for instance where the people who are the biggest ass kissers are looked at as good employees, and I think how obvious is that, why does management buy this crap? So then the people who are sincere and honest look like troublemakers alongside those folks.

Repressed people tend to view those who are openly emotional and honest as being manipulative, because it triggers their own emotions to stir up and then they have to feel things they don't want to feel. In their mind it's like you are making them feel something against their will.

I think actual manipulation is more about shaping how other people perceive you...in other words, a manipulative person doesn't want to show their real emotions, or say what they really think, because they want to be perceived a certain way. Showing real emotion is showing vulnerability, and they want to hide that.

I'm not sure I have anything helpful to offer, but what you said here was striking to me because of something my favorite sociologist, Philip Slater once said, that "men blame women for the emotions women make them feel" or something to that effect. I don't know which book so I can't look it up.

i am finding the post a bit unclear in terms of what kind of manipulation you are being accused of or worrying that you do. However, if your ex wants radio silence that is his right. I've known so many friends who couldn't let a person go and bothered them for "one last conversation" or "just explain what I did wrong" types of things. That stuff will only drag out pain further . Leave him to his silence.

Referencing words from the original post, I might think manipulation could be characterized by use of deceit or rant, the latter being an attempt to manipulate by use of anger and/or harsh words.

If my own natural tendencies go against that, strongly, how do I do it? I have impulsive issues and C-PTSD. Therapist is yet to give me techniques so I try very hard to seek resources online but none of it seems to help. I don't know where else to look or what else to try to stop me being me.

Also, I tend to like a balance in situations. When you break up with somebody and need space before your own suggested friendship, there's nothing stopping you from sending a card maybe at some point to say "I'm doing well, I hope you are too. I need more time but I'll let you know when it is fine. Hope you're still working on that project."

If this was said to me at any point I would have dived right back into things, esp. the project he had been involved in, mostly because I would feel free and actually cared for as was suggested by him and partly because I would feel pretty happy to point at the one he was involved in and say, "Look! I did this bit and that bit!" as he was the most experienced person in it.

I think each person has to take responsibility. I have to try my hardest not to give in to any whim. If it happens I need to make sure I put it as carefully and non-accusatory as I can. I have to respect he is a person, not a thing which makes me ache. He, on the other hand, knows the severe separation anxiety I have. His role of partner is gone but he has extended the wish to be friends. In that way, the card would have sufficed. Any questions could be answered with "I'm sorry, I really can't answer these right now but [insert what card said, more or less]". That's what I assume somebody who cared still and wanted to be friends would do, give a teensy amount of support and then return to their cave. Since it's what I would force myself to do for the sake of decency in his shoes if I wanted to have a friendship later, it's hard to comprehend why he wouldn't.

At the same time, he won't tell me not to contact on the couple times I've failed and he also hasn't told me he doesn't want to talk to me at all. I have told him that if he makes definite statements then I can follow them better. His beginning the no contact was "I think that we" not "I want and need". His ambiguity is making it extremely tricky to try to adhere to this as it seems as if I've not been given rules and various people have various thoughts on it. I always ask my carer whether I should try to contact with a question and one time asked a whole group. I was told "yes, do what you have to do for your own well-being".

I don't understand all the mixed messages I'm getting from all over the place. I'm looking for something which I can grasp and isn't so hideously over-simplified or unbalanced.



My talking to my friends, a handful mutual, about what's going on in my head. My confusion as to what friends do or don't do but the acceptance that I likely got this wrong from being stuck in novels and not having actual friends until I was a late teen. I say what I thought happens and what I'm willing to do, and my not understanding why it isn't occurring. Then compounding issues come up, like when people on other sites say they would do it and I need new friends. I tell my friends this is obviously not true because they do listen to me and have assisted in other ways, but now I am confused about whether my idea actually does apply in other people.

I think out loud, basically, and when anybody says something I assure them that they are valued. When they give an explanation it is always reasonable and I make sure to express that.

My ex seemed to have accused me of being manipulative during the break up. He said he wanted to be friends and he'd talk in a few days, which he never. This confused me.

My carer said something too but I've forgotten what it was because of how much he backpedaled when I asked for verification on a few points. Basically, it was gibberish by the end.

In the past, manipulators have said it to gas-light me but my friends now tell me I'm simply upset and trying to work it out, probably because I either delete or balance out the angrier posts. They know of my various diagnoses, several have one or more themselves, or are close to somebody who does. In that way, they understand and see how much I try to fight them. So in that manner, they are wonderful.

I think the issue is that the friends who are more likely to engage in the behaviours I read in the books are more extroverted than the people I am closest to and also tend to have social confidence. Unfortunately, those kinds of people make me nervous and I usually can't form a strong enough bond or keep it up.

In the end, the social circles I am a part of tend to be quite homogeneous and I rarely make actual friends, only acquaintances, and rarely do I make close friends. Generally I have to have had sex with them to fully trust. For instance, my carer is an old ex of mine.

My friends/acquaintances have kind but quiet hearts and I suppose I hadn't realised just quite how quiet. Now I wonder that if they asked me to do something for them that they would not do for me, would I do it? Likely yes so the question would become should I do it?

I'm sorry If I talked harshly to you. It's a dark and lonely time getting through a break up. As for "how do I do it" and leave him alone, well maybe you can't, but nevertheless he has a right to his silence. In a perfect world we would stay friends with exes and do the things you want, but that's not always realistic and cutting you off may be all he can cope with in order to move on. My advice is to concentrate on finding happiness and a life without him, enjoying being with friends, enjoying any interaction with other people. I know how it is believe me, I have impulse issues too and I have had a time years ago when I believed another person was my whole world and was devastated when I "lost" them. A couple of years later I saw them in the street and felt nothing. It was all in me.

It wasn't harsh, I've just heard it before. It's all good.

And since I'm getting a lot of friends saying he's engaging in avoidance, like adult-version of hiding under a duvet, I think I'm going to tell him to keep his friendship promise and silence because I don't want either of them. Tiring. No relationships for loooooooooong time after this nonsense.