Pattern Thinkers. Is my mind strange also for an Aspie?

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Nightsun
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20 Oct 2009, 3:01 am

I do mental math in the exact shape described by wildgrape. I'm not very good in "usual mental math" but my mother (probably on the spectrum herself) made me learn the "grocerer calculation" as she used to call it.

Basically I've a "basic" and easy table and I find the results in an approximation way. For istance if I need to do 29*29 my mind do the following:

29*30 = (29*100)/2 + (29*10)/2


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IMForeman
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20 Oct 2009, 7:32 am

I've just made an intuitive leap reading what people are saying here. The things I'm poor at seems to be computer-like things. Mathematics, that sort of thing. Like some here I struggled as soon as mental arithmetic entered the picture at school. As soon as I had to start keeping track of things in my head (As soon as we got to long multiplication and division) I had serious problems.

I spoke to a support worker at college who said I must have needed to learn from the ground up again at that point. I don't know how to describe my thinking exactly, it's one reason I want to be tested and find out lol, but computer-like it aint.



Nightsun
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20 Oct 2009, 8:34 am

I found an interesting entry in wikipedia about this kind of thinking. Someone seems to call it "system-thinking":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_thinking

Quote:
Systems thinking is any process of estimating or inferring how local policies, actions, or changes influence the state of the neighboring universe. It also can be defined, as an approach to problem solving, as viewing "problems" as parts of an overall system, rather than reacting to present outcomes or events and potentially contributing to further development of the undesired issue or problem.[1] Systems thinking is a framework that is based on the belief that the component parts of a system can best be understood in the context of relationships with each other and with other systems, rather than in isolation. The only way to fully understand why a problem or element occurs and persists is to understand the part in relation to the whole.[2] Standing in contrast to Descartes's scientific reductionism and philosophical analysis, it proposes to view systems in a holistic manner. Consistent with systems philosophy, systems thinking concerns an understanding of a system by examining the linkages and interactions between the elements that compose the entirety of the system.
Systems thinking attempts to illustrate that events are separated by distance and time and that small catalytic events can cause large changes in complex systems. Acknowledging that an improvement in one area of a system can adversely affect another area of the system, it promotes organizational communication at all levels in order to avoid the silo effect. Systems thinking techniques may be used to study any kind of system — natural, scientific, engineered, human, or conceptual.


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Nightsun
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20 Oct 2009, 8:54 am

Other resoruces:

http://www.hitchins.net/SysThink.html

Mind map:
http://mappio.com/mindmap/vvojtko/syste ... ing-skills


Important system-thinkers:

http://geosystemics.com/img/systemthinking.gif


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wildgrape
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20 Oct 2009, 10:01 am

Nightsun wrote

Quote:
I find the results in an approximation way. For istance if I need to do 29*29 my mind do the following:

29*30 = (29*100)/2 + (29*10)/2


I know the exact answer to 29*29 in a split second. 30*30=900 -> 29*30=870 -> 29*29=841. This is so obvious to me that for years I thought everybody should be able to immediately see this.

I also have a good memory. When buying groceries, if I am only getting 8 or 10 items, I often remember the prices while waiting in line and total them up in my head and know the amount owing before I reach the cashier.

I do regularly use approximation for more complex calculations, particularly to check the accuracy of numerical facts and statistics in newspaper articles, reports,and presentations. I almost have a compulsion to undertake continually such mental verification.

Nightsun wrote

Quote:
Someone seems to call it "system-thinking"


Having studied economics I understand the concept of "system-thinking", notably its correlation with macro-economics. There are some brilliant macro-economic system-thinkers, but this is not my particular gift or interest. It may, however, be yours. I am capable of very complex mental manipulation of given factors, which is more useful in a variety of micro-economic applications. I am also capable of lateral thinking and recognizing an undiscovered relationship with an outside factor, but I shy away from dealing with an ever expanding number of variables. I sense that you may well be more of "big-picture" thinker than I am.



Nightsun
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20 Oct 2009, 10:10 am

Obviosly wildgrape your way is easyer :)

Embracing the idea of "different wiring" is it possible that there is a brain-zone devoted to abstract/system/pattern thinking?


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20 Oct 2009, 4:56 pm

Reading this thread has been really interesting for me.

I can immediately grasp the concepts that are parallel with my own mode of thinking. When someone speaks of his or her abilities in math, I can relate--I am strongly mathematical (my first degree is in pure mathematics). Although high school algebra and some parts of integral calculus were difficult for me, I was enthusiastic about courses like Discrete Algebraic Structures, Number Theory, Set Theory and Symbolic Logic.

But when people start to write about thought processes that diverge from mine, I tune out. I catch myself skimming over those posts, and then have to tell myself to go back and reread it. But even then, without the personal experience to put the text into perspective, it takes on a very abstract nature that it is difficult for me to absorb.


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Nightsun
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21 Oct 2009, 4:02 am

Without derailing the conversation. I've found this link: http://prodsol.co.nz/secretofgenius.html that explain in a simple way what I'm trying to say:

Analytical thinking lists a handful of elements or options, ranks them best to worst and selects the best one. In the process, it discards the other elements which obviously have merits that the selected option doesn't - or else they would not have remained on the list.

Pattern Thinking is different. It lists as many elements or options as possible, surfaces common themes and then finds the repeating pattern across those common themes. In the process, it combines the essential merits of all the options and produces a deeper and more holistic insight or solution.

Basically every study I've read focus on the "Analytical mind" of AS. I've a "Pattern mind" (well my analytical mind is still better than many people who think with sentiment).


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21 Oct 2009, 11:58 am

Nightsun wrote:
Without derailing the conversation. I've found this link: http://prodsol.co.nz/secretofgenius.html that explain in a simple way what I'm trying to say:

Analytical thinking lists a handful of elements or options, ranks them best to worst and selects the best one. In the process, it discards the other elements which obviously have merits that the selected option doesn't - or else they would not have remained on the list.

Pattern Thinking is different. It lists as many elements or options as possible, surfaces common themes and then finds the repeating pattern across those common themes. In the process, it combines the essential merits of all the options and produces a deeper and more holistic insight or solution.

Basically every study I've read focus on the "Analytical mind" of AS. I've a "Pattern mind" (well my analytical mind is still better than many people who think with sentiment).


I think I'm a visual pattern thinker rather than a numerical pattern thinker.



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21 Oct 2009, 12:38 pm

Interesting thread. I'm not sure were I fit into this. I struggled with verbal-stuff, and I am not good at mental math. I'm not a verbal thinker (I use a verbal 'translator'), but I'm also not a picture thinker. What I am very good at is to build complex models of things in my head, and to remember how source-code I wrote years ago in assembly function and interoperate. I'm also good at finding patterns in things (I don't mean visual patterns here). I always use the buttom-up approach when programming (or investigating things), but when I have gathered enough of data, I can easily see patterns that others cannot. Therefore, I think I'm much better at seeing the large picture than most people (including NTs), but I arrive there in a very different way by finding relationships between details.



Nightsun
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22 Oct 2009, 2:51 am

rdos wrote:
Therefore, I think I'm much better at seeing the large picture than most people (including NTs), but I arrive there in a very different way by finding relationships between details.


Yes I'm really like that.

In my head if I can make a favour: abstract ideas/pattern > pictures > words > sensation. I'm basically unable to remember sensation and this is good for me because I don't have "fear of the past" and I'm quite forgiving. The majority of my picture memories where before adolescence, back then my memory/mind where primary pictures. After that I've started to gather enough data to start abstracting and inter-connecting ideas. Yes, I start from particular and go fo big pictures (bottom-up) but after that I'm pretty good at recognizing pattern in very different topic and apply them.


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22 Oct 2009, 7:01 am

I see patterns, but I do not do side shows.

The whole idea of Psychology is wrong, they see behaviors and never the underlying cause.

There is no one truth to humans, there are lots of truths.

This thread is very INTP. That works on the universe, but not on the other fifteen major types.

INTP is only a marker, and fits 1%, but this sector of the circle of thought is still alien to most.

ENTP brings the group up to 6%, and it is systems and things over people.

This node sees most humans as space fillers, and most humans see them as uncaring, strange, with the potential to change everything. One Universal Truth can mess up a lot of long standing human systems.

Humans, the mass called NT here, base their whole life on relationships, "It is not what you know, but who you know."

They may well see the same pictures, systems, but shut that out, because networking by mimicing the behavior of the group they wish to be members of is of greater importance.

For most, social relationships are their best move. They will join the right church, political party, and have the same views as the local factory owner, because they need that factory job.

"It is obvious you will not survive by wits alone." Dilbert

For the what you know set, a simple study of industrial history shows that technology has a short life, and that the factory is near the end of it's. So they think of what will replace it. They position themselves in the path of the future.

They are famous for their lack of attachment for the past, their own time, I mean, "Yesterdays Gone!"
At midnight the day becomes history.

Now and future oriented. Based on verifieable universal truths.

When it comes to, what would other people think? I live by the immortal words, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

I have been following a few emerging patterns. One is the Markram's Intense World view of autism. Everyone suffers from Intense World, the watershed is, the autistic turn within to special interests, and the rest turn outward to hyper socialization.

It fits the things and facts over people model. It is not Psychology, or even Neurology, it is a world view and value system.

Aliens have landed, they are attacking groups of people and eating them, lets hold a big meeting and figure out what to do. My first thought is Alien lunch, my second is with that much food their ships will not be well guarded.

We hold these truths to be self evident, when you break a Law of Nature, you are dead.

I have to stay with my truths, for anything else is lacking a pattern I can function in. I cannot Socialize More, accept the views of the largest group, or make myself acceptable to others. I equate it to learning the names of all six billion people, and getting the permission of each to be myself. I do not know the names of my neighbors, but if someone wrote a book a few hundred years ago, I know them.

My relationship with this planet seems to be with it's history, and it's future. The rest is of little interest.

I have patented things, but hold most as secrets now, and I do write books. I am finally getting around to publishing, but my chosen market is the next few hundred years. In my life most of my best friends and teachers died hundreds to thousands of years ago. They were all self educated.

My subject is how did this start, and how did it become like it is. I see two patterns, those who seek whole truths, and those who seek social relationships. They can work together, but most of history shows that they often get an imbalance that leads to things like the American Civil War, Genocidial Lemmings.

The recent view of the Social Model over all, labels thinkers as Autistic, and Social Relationships are never going to recover the Amerian Economy. They ate the seed corn, then promised next year will be better.

I have noticed that people do not like me. But when nothing else works, and during disasters, they turn to me for answers. When everything works again, they return to not liking me.

They do have an awareness of my function, but I spoil their fun when they just want to play. As a past head of the Federal Reserve said, "Just when he party gets going, I am the guy who comes and takes away the punch bowl."

They want to spend everything on today, I spend everything on tomorrow.

I see structure. I keep running into my past. How did this perfectly functioning machine get here? I bought tomorrow. They also run into their past, when the credit card bill comes where they are still paying at 18% for a vacation they took three years ago.

The main character in my book has no idea what life is, where it is going, just that she will provide for the future, and is along for the ride. She lives today fully, and invests everything in tomorrow. It turns out well.

I had no idea where I was going. I just did what I do, and over time, it grew.

Warren Buffet described it, "First you climb the mountain, then throw away everything you have, in a snowball that rolls downhill, and gathers, the rest is just physics."

He still lives in the same house, his mother used to lay out his clothes every day, now his wife does, he is one of us.

So I am not buying Psychobabble. The mental views and social habits of the INTP, ENTP, do explain all.

I call it Applied Autism. Long ago it was summed up in a story about the Grasshopper and the Ant. The grasshopper played and ate through an endless summer, while the ant worked on investing in the future. The grasshoppers laughed at the ants, but after the first frost the ants came out and ate their dead bodies. The next year there were a new crop of rude grasshoppers.

I do not let grasshoppers define me, and WP is full of ants.



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22 Oct 2009, 8:16 am

Interesting thought re: analytical vs. pattern thinking. I wonder if my fascination with alternatives is related to pattern thinking. I almost always like thinking about all of the possibilities and am often loathe to choose one. If someone asks me how to get from point A to B, it is in my nature to give them three options and let them decide which way they would like to go. Most people, though, just want one answer.


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Nightsun
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23 Oct 2009, 7:36 am

I really think that going from a functionality/behavioral label to a mind-wiring/personality "label" will help a lot many people, what works for anyone cannot work for me, the question for me is why? Between me and my wife we have 3 out of 4 doctors parents and I always thinked that medicine is not science, actually psicology is far less, badly. Probably due to my mind or to my professional studies I need a bottom-up approach to make up ideas, then generalize and then apply that to other people, while it seems that actual autism-psicology follow a top-bottom approach where they see "what's wrong" and thend find the cause (if they care).

P.S.
@Inventor: Actually I'm strongly INTJ (about 50%, 75%, 75%, 60%)


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23 Oct 2009, 11:35 am

Nightsun wrote:
@Inventor: Actually I'm strongly INTJ...

Me, too. No wonder we seem to get along ;)


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