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primaloath
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12 Sep 2010, 6:15 pm

An ideal story of social interaction would go along these lines:

Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: Sure.

And an alternative, still lovely story:

Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: Sure, but you need to develop qualities XYZ first.
Me: Yay, I'm gonna develop qualities XYZ and then we'll be friends!
This Other Guy: Hey, let me help you develop these qualities while we're at it!

However, I have tended to experience altogether different stories of social interaction in reality:

Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: I will now subject you to a series of social tests meant to assess whether I should dominate you, coordinate with you, kiss up to you, ignore you or ostracise you.
Me: Uh... Sorry?
This Other Guy: "Sorry" was not the correct answer. Indeed, it is so blatantly incorrect that I am ashamed to be in the presence of one who has failed such a simple test. As you appear utterly inept at producing social cues, I deem you unfit for anything but ostracism, and shall relay my opinion to everyone else in the room by smirking awkwardly.

And an alternative, rarer interaction is:
Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: I was about to subject you to a series of social tests meant to assess how I should deal with you. Thank you, however, for providing the answer yourself. It seems that the most appropriate thing is to con you.
Me: Yay, we'll be friends!
This Other Guy: *snicker*

Of course, there were also people with whom I have gotten along, and on one occasion, the first of the above stories did take place. Sadly, I was suspicious of many of the friendships thus formed due to the impression I received from the majority.

In the last several days, having finally understood what the emotion of "hurt" truly means, I could not help but feel that many of my interactions were of the latter sort. Whenever I saw someone use social signals or engage in conversation, I knew very well that they were testing me somehow, and that they would try to hurt me later on (f.ex. by gossiping against me) if I failed the test.

Unconsciously after a point, I realized that, during conversation, many people were less interested in sharing information than in carrying out tests to gauge my social "standing", and that there was a strong possibility that they would decide to hurt me later on if I didn't pass some of these tests. In hindsight, I should have seen how rude and despicable the testing was. but I was left so indoctrinated after more than two decades of putting up with this nonsense that I have only recently realized I shouldn't bother to speak to the people who intend to put me through these tests at all.



Moog
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12 Sep 2010, 6:36 pm

primaloath wrote:
Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: I will now subject you to a series of social tests meant to assess whether I should dominate you, coordinate with you, kiss up to you, ignore you or ostracise you.
Me: Uh... Sorry?
This Other Guy: "Sorry" was not the correct answer. Indeed, it is so blatantly incorrect that I am ashamed to be in the presence of one who has failed such a simple test. As you appear utterly inept at producing social cues, I deem you unfit for anything but ostracism, and shall relay my opinion to everyone else in the room by smirking awkwardly.


That made me laugh, there's the ring of truth to it. I think the trick is to try and fall in the co-ordinate or ignore boxes. That's my approach anyhow. Good luck.


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Peko
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12 Sep 2010, 7:11 pm

I observe people & try sitting near the oddballs :wink:


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ranger97
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12 Sep 2010, 11:06 pm

My experience is similar to yours. Every day I wonder how otherwise decent seeming people can be so arrogant and malicious, for no reason other than you being a decent person. And I've found out that many, many other people do these things. It's like a game for them. Except when they get bored with it then you don't exist, but they always come back.

The way I look at it, you might find way fewer people in your life, but ignore them. It's a sickness you have no way of being able to help them with.



dt18
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13 Sep 2010, 12:00 am

primaloath wrote:
An ideal story of social interaction would go along these lines:

Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: Sure.

And an alternative, still lovely story:

Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: Sure, but you need to develop qualities XYZ first.
Me: Yay, I'm gonna develop qualities XYZ and then we'll be friends!
This Other Guy: Hey, let me help you develop these qualities while we're at it!

However, I have tended to experience altogether different stories of social interaction in reality:

Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: I will now subject you to a series of social tests meant to assess whether I should dominate you, coordinate with you, kiss up to you, ignore you or ostracise you.
Me: Uh... Sorry?
This Other Guy: "Sorry" was not the correct answer. Indeed, it is so blatantly incorrect that I am ashamed to be in the presence of one who has failed such a simple test. As you appear utterly inept at producing social cues, I deem you unfit for anything but ostracism, and shall relay my opinion to everyone else in the room by smirking awkwardly.

And an alternative, rarer interaction is:
Me: I wanna be friends!
This Other Guy: I was about to subject you to a series of social tests meant to assess how I should deal with you. Thank you, however, for providing the answer yourself. It seems that the most appropriate thing is to con you.
Me: Yay, we'll be friends!
This Other Guy: *snicker*

Of course, there were also people with whom I have gotten along, and on one occasion, the first of the above stories did take place. Sadly, I was suspicious of many of the friendships thus formed due to the impression I received from the majority.

In the last several days, having finally understood what the emotion of "hurt" truly means, I could not help but feel that many of my interactions were of the latter sort. Whenever I saw someone use social signals or engage in conversation, I knew very well that they were testing me somehow, and that they would try to hurt me later on (f.ex. by gossiping against me) if I failed the test.

Unconsciously after a point, I realized that, during conversation, many people were less interested in sharing information than in carrying out tests to gauge my social "standing", and that there was a strong possibility that they would decide to hurt me later on if I didn't pass some of these tests. In hindsight, I should have seen how rude and despicable the testing was. but I was left so indoctrinated after more than two decades of putting up with this nonsense that I have only recently realized I shouldn't bother to speak to the people who intend to put me through these tests at all.


Such a true statement



arondight
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13 Sep 2010, 9:38 pm

My first post here :arrow: Something I've found is that there are people that mistake inability to respond to social cues for unwillingness and as a result believe that it does not bother you when they say or do hurtful things. To them this is confirmed by your behavior remaining unchanged. They really don't perceive that it isn't as easy for you as it is for them, or should I say that they refuse to?


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goatboy
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13 Sep 2010, 11:30 pm

ranger97 wrote:
My experience is similar to yours. Every day I wonder how otherwise decent seeming people can be so arrogant and malicious, for no reason other than you being a decent person. And I've found out that many, many other people do these things. It's like a game for them. Except when they get bored with it then you don't exist, but they always come back.


It's only like a game to them when they win. If they start to lose, suddenly it's deadly serious :)

Quick guide to social warfare... err I mean social status:
- Know the rules, but only play by them when it suits you to do so
- Don't care what someone thinks about you [if you care, they will use this against you]
- Don't justify or explain yourself, this looks weak.
- Always try to dominate them at least a bit.
- Be unafraid to be a little controversial
- Never show off to gain approval
- Slightly court disapproval (but not too much, just enough to show you're not approval seeking)
- Never do what someone tells you to
- ... but it's ok to swap. Just don't make it look like swapping, that would look petty and small minded.
- Talk with authority. Even ask questions with authority,,,
- ... but don't overdo it
- Reward good behaviour
- Ignore bad behaviour
- Work out people's weaknesses and probe a little, they appreciate the chance to fight back
- Provoke people into fighting back, then chuckle and appreciate their efforts
- Everyone else is insecure and terrified - be nice to them a bit if they deserve it
- Don't try to make friends. Be awesome, and let them come to you.
- Choose your battles. Choosing the agenda gives you the edge
- Don't fight battles you don't understand, change the subject.
- Answer a different question to the one you are asked - don't give their point of view traction by agreeing or disagreeing.
- Never show fear, doubt, lack of understanding before dominance. With some dominance in place, you can say "why the f**k did you say that?" and get them on the back foot.
- Learn to be independent, even in social situations. If people spot vulnerability, they will exploit it.



Musicprophets
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19 Sep 2010, 6:10 pm

goatboy wrote:
ranger97 wrote:
My experience is similar to yours. Every day I wonder how otherwise decent seeming people can be so arrogant and malicious, for no reason other than you being a decent person. And I've found out that many, many other people do these things. It's like a game for them. Except when they get bored with it then you don't exist, but they always come back.


It's only like a game to them when they win. If they start to lose, suddenly it's deadly serious :)

Quick guide to social warfare... err I mean social status:
- Know the rules, but only play by them when it suits you to do so
- Don't care what someone thinks about you [if you care, they will use this against you]
- Don't justify or explain yourself, this looks weak.
- Always try to dominate them at least a bit.
- Be unafraid to be a little controversial
- Never show off to gain approval
- Slightly court disapproval (but not too much, just enough to show you're not approval seeking)
- Never do what someone tells you to
- ... but it's ok to swap. Just don't make it look like swapping, that would look petty and small minded.
- Talk with authority. Even ask questions with authority,,,
- ... but don't overdo it
- Reward good behaviour
- Ignore bad behaviour
- Work out people's weaknesses and probe a little, they appreciate the chance to fight back
- Provoke people into fighting back, then chuckle and appreciate their efforts
- Everyone else is insecure and terrified - be nice to them a bit if they deserve it
- Don't try to make friends. Be awesome, and let them come to you.
- Choose your battles. Choosing the agenda gives you the edge
- Don't fight battles you don't understand, change the subject.
- Answer a different question to the one you are asked - don't give their point of view traction by agreeing or disagreeing.
- Never show fear, doubt, lack of understanding before dominance. With some dominance in place, you can say "why the f**k did you say that?" and get them on the back foot.
- Learn to be independent, even in social situations. If people spot vulnerability, they will exploit it.


this is very true when trying to be "friends" with guys. its all about one-up manship and being sarcastic and exploiting and overexagerrating even the slightest thing said. oh yeah and being a stoner or talking sports or playing ps3 or getting drunk gets you in more so than any other thing. i just hate it.



Major_G
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29 Sep 2010, 12:46 pm

arondight wrote:
My first post here :arrow: Something I've found is that there are people that mistake inability to respond to social cues for unwillingness and as a result believe that it does not bother you when they say or do hurtful things. To them this is confirmed by your behavior remaining unchanged. They really don't perceive that it isn't as easy for you as it is for them, or should I say that they refuse to?

Same here - I've noticed that most NTs absolutely REFUSE to believe that someone would be unable to decipher that moving their left pinky a fraction of an inch to the right means "GO AWAY NOW!"*


*Totally fictional statement, but you guys should know what I mean



Niamh
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07 Oct 2010, 9:00 am

ranger97 wrote:
My experience is similar to yours. Every day I wonder how otherwise decent seeming people can be so arrogant and malicious, for no reason other than you being a decent person. And I've found out that many, many other people do these things. It's like a game for them. Except when they get bored with it then you don't exist, but they always come back.

The way I look at it, you might find way fewer people in your life, but ignore them. It's a sickness you have no way of being able to help them with.


I'm finding the same surprises myself more and more! For example, a guy who I thought to be reasonable, mature and kind is actually a bit of a prick, because he's decided he likes to make me feel bad about myself and attack me over talking about having Asperger's and pointing out when I'm quiet etc. *sigh* Confusing thing is, he did the latter when I was at his place for a dinner party, invited by him. Just another NT game, I suppose.