Are there any gay people who think they choose to be gay?

Post Reply New Topic

I was just wondering if that is the case. It's seems like only straight people ever believe such.

Well, if you are a straight guy, imagine that you could choke down your initial revulsion about the idea of sleeping with a man. Just imagine that you somehow managed to bring yourself to sleep with a guy. You are there, and you are expected to react in certain ways.

Well, the guy would say, "what's wrong? Are you not interested in me?"

"It's not that," you say. "I just don't feel right."

"Well, let me try so-and-so." Don't bother working out whatever it is he does.

You grit your teeth, and you tolerate his ministrations for a while. There is an icy pit somewhere in your stomach, and you are definitely not getting into it. After a few minutes, you start day-dreaming, and you are feeling generally unpleasant.

"Okay, I give up," he says.

"Why?" you ask.

"You're not responding. It isn't worth it." He gets up, puts his clothes on, and goes into the front room to drink a beer, looking disappointed and annoyed.

Well, in spite of the fact that you didn't want to be there in the first place, this leaves you feeling inadequate and crappy. You feel like you promised something that you couldn't give, and you came up short. I don't care who you are, there is nothing in the world that makes you feel more suicidal than being in this situation.

Now, switch scenes.

Imagine instead that you are in bed with an attractive girl. She makes you feel like a super-hero. She can do anything for you, and being with her makes you feel like you have been transported into some fairy-tale dream-world. You fall in love. You feel like you could never remain sane without her there to be your rock. You feel like she's the only reason you can be a good person.

Imagine some jerk comes along and tells you, "you aren't really born straight. You just choose to be that way because you like to be in control." And that person won't even acknowledge that you have legitimate feelings for the woman you have given your heart to. In this person's eyes, you don't have the ability to feel love for this girl. You are just an unfeeling tyrant, and you only sleep with women because you like to feel dominant. This person will not acknowledge that you have a feeling, loving soul in you.

Sure, you could shrug it off like water off a duck's back if it were just some random loser, but it wouldn't be that easy if your father, mother and every friend you had said, "you are dead to me," and the only people left in your life who would still talk to you were dumb potheads and the local atheist. People you had once looked down on, perhaps. Someone who comes from a relatively wholesome background is just not mentally prepared to weather that kind of trauma, so it's little wonder some of them just give up.

If you were a normal person, you would just drink booze until you were too numb to feel anything.

Straight guy who chooses to be straight here.

Seriously, I used to think that homosexuality was something you chose to do, but I've had a change of heart.

I think it's POSSIBLE to choose to be gay. But more often I think what happens is people are born with a predisposition towards same-sex attraction. I'm not convinced, however, that someone with a same-sex attraction is unable to choose their response to those feelings.

I could be born with a tendency towards violent rage, so in a sense I could make the argument that I can't help being a murderer, it's just how I was born. But as a criminal I'd be locked up in prison for life or get the death penalty. Having a same-sex attraction does not guarantee that someone will actually act upon that attraction any more than someone with violent tendencies would be unable to get counseling or anger management training.

What happens is that some people who struggle with same-sex attraction believe that those feelings are wrong and are confused that they have those feelings to begin with. They simply refuse to act on those feelings for the most part, but nevertheless feel plagued by them. And there are support groups out there whose goal is to help people navigate this confusion and come to terms with it without acting on it. Many of the people involved with these organizations are "ex-gays" themselves. They don't claim a 100% "success" rate or to be a "cure" for homosexuality. They just claim to merely be an alternative to the gay lifestyle for those who feel same-sex attraction but do not wish to be a part of it.

So let's say you and a good woman found each other, and you felt like God hand-picked you for each other. I am talking about a genuine sense that you were destined to be together. Nothing in the world feels so right.

Now, imagine someone says that expressing your feelings for her makes you comparable to a murderer, and God is sending you to burn in Hell. It wouldn't endear you to that person.

Now, imagine everyone you know saying that God hates you, and you are going to burn in Hell.

Would you kill yourself? I bet you would.

It's like seeing what you thought was God being murdered.

For one, I never compared being gay to murder. Murder is a choice made when someone acts on murderous feelings. This isn't about right/wrong or morality. The point is not whether it is right to feel that way. If you can't help it, there's nothing you can do to get around it. You only get to choose what you actually do.

I suppose something more applicable to my situation would be if I were to fall in love with someone other than my wife. I don't even mind admitting that this happened maybe a time or two. Some people might call it emotional cheating. Others might say I should leave my wife for the sake of "true love." But I just find it inappropriate to pursue those relationships in the context of my wedding vows. I made the choice to keep tight-lipped about it rather than allow myself to be swayed by passing emotions or attractions. If I had WANTED to, I certainly could have pursued an extramarital relationship. I would have if I blindly followed my emotions. It's much more than just emotions; we tend to choose what we want.

No one is compelled to act on same-sex attraction any more than I'm compelled to cheat on my wife just because I'm attracted to other women. These things happen because people want them to happen, and it is demonstrably possible for someon to keep unwanted emotions or attractions at bay and choose alternatives.

The other point I'd like to get at is your idea of putting me in that hypothetical place won't work. I'm used to being told that God hates me and that I'm going to hell. When I ask them for a Biblical justification for their opinion, I politely remind them that just being weird is not a valid disqualification from God's grace.

this is a great response. But, I'm and Atheist so I will be happy to talk with you. Sorry if I don't qualify as wholesome, first class citizen I guess.

Humm I think this thread is going to end up getting locked. I agree with William in that you state the choice to act on being Gay is the same as Acting on your choice to murder... stop backpedaling. how can you compare violence and murder of another person to one unconditional love of another person???

The choice to act on Gay impulses is identical to act on Straight impulses and both can choose to be celibate and live alone and lonely for their entire lives. However the question becomes Why should they be denied the right to love another person? Outside of Bible thumping bigots there is no valid reason that I have found at least.. Even among Theists there are many disagreements between members over the morality and rights of this. If you got reasons, post them so we can destroy every argument you think you can make... FYI I am straight male, married with 2 kids. Oh yeah, Religion claimed not so long ago that I couldn't marry my wife because it was immoral and a sin ...

You sure did. You are trying to compare a gay person acting on what you call "same-sex attraction" to a murderer acting on aggressive impulses.

In remaining constant with my lover, I am not acting on "same-sex attraction." I am acting in keeping with my sense of honor and fidelity. I am acting on a need in my conscience to keep the promises I have made. Even if we were no longer attracted to each other physically, we are still bound by that.

Also, the outcome is that both of us are more responsible members of society as long as we are tethered to each other. I help keep his depression at bay, and he calms my restless spirit. Both of us are better people because of each other's presence in our lives. This isn't true of just us, but it's true of thousands of gay men everywhere who are constant with their partners. For you to try to compare that to murder is the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

That would involve infidelity, which is a betrayal of trust. A better example would be if you were still young, and you lived in a society that practiced arranged marriage. Your parents and church taught you that even having feelings for any other woman is a sin that just might send you straight to Hell, and acting on them would almost certainly leave you disinherited and homeless if you didn't just quietly disappear one night.

Add to that growing up in a society where people your own age accept this fully. Your buddies at school suspect that you have been looking at girls other than the one who was assigned to you. Sometimes, a gang of them follows you around, taunting you for it. Girls your own age shun getting within a yard of you, claiming that you are intent on raping the first woman you can catch alone, and they routinely report you for "looking at them lustfully." You live in constant fear of the local bully breaking every bone in your body and rolling you into a ditch, leaving your for dead, for thinking "lustful thoughts" about the girl assigned to him.

Beyond that, if you don't make enough of a show of being madly in love with the woman assigned to you, this twisted society brands you with a label that follows you around for the rest of your life. Even if you try to change, it's still there. Any denial you make about it rings hollow. You are a "different kind of person."

If you want to compare that to living with being gay, that might work. It's almost as deranged as how gay people are treated. Tell me, are you still confused as to why so many gay youth kill themselves? I've really gone to a lot of trouble here to make this plain.

So it didn't cross your mind what that would do to your wife? Do you have any idea how much that destroys a person?

My first lover had the muzzle of the shotgun in his mouth and his toe on the trigger. It doesn't work. You are killing people.

And you don't seem to care.

I choose my behaviour, not my orientation.

My body tells me what arouses me sexually. I can then choose to fulfil my sexual appetites or not.

I don't doubt for a moment that with the right help I could function sexually with a woman. But I certainly could not provide a sexually satisfactory experience to a woman in the way that I hope that I can with a man.

So does this mean that I could choose to be heterosexual? To my mind it does not. Sexuality and sexual behaviour are two different things--linked, to be sure--but different.

No. Because if you can choose, then by definition, that actually makes you a bisexual.

My sister has told me it is a choice and that she could have chose men instead. That makes her a bisexual.

^^^This.

Thanks. I'm also an atheist, I think, but I have gotten to be a bit...complicated over the years.

Frankly, one thing that nobody else seems to want to bring up is this: when you are talking about gay people who have been with one partner for a long time, you are not just talking about "same-sex attraction." A culture develops between them. In the end, the feelings associated with true fidelity are universal.

As with opposite-sex attraction, if same-sex love were just about the physical act and physical gratification of sex, it would be ugly. It's one thing to have a couple of well-groomed models expertly fornicating with each other in a video, but you can't put a pretty face on some greasy, unshaven cab driver picking up a prostitute, with no feeling in it at all.

Therefore, I see it as kind of prejudicial to talk about being gay as if "same-sex attraction" were the only aspect of it. There are many dimensions to how you interact with a lover. If your lover were hospitalized, you would be the one staying there through the night and holding his or her hand. If you wanted to take up a musical instrument, it would be your lover who supported you through it and kept encouraging you, even though your early efforts were painfully bad. There are places you can go in your life that you could not if you were alone.

For some people, it is very difficult to live a decent life without a lover there to be a sort of "rock of stability." If you are gay, a person of the opposite sex cannot fill that role and could never fill that role.

Being gay doesn't have a whole lot to do with a physical reaction I have when I see a naked man. I am not even visually stimulated. It has everything to do with what I need to feel whole.

I can assure you that I do not choose to be gay. I chose to accept that I am gay, I chose to come out to my family, and one day I hope to choose to enter into a same-sex marriage. But the fact that I am physically attracted to guys was never a choice. The fact that I am capable of that sort of emotional connection with a guy is not a choice.

I strongly suspect that the people who claim that being gay is a choice are people who are actually somewhat bisexual. They've felt, at some time or another, some sort of attraction to a member of the same sex. But because of cultural conditioning they suppressed it and chose not to act on it. They assume that the situation I described is all that any gay man ever feels, and so to them it would appear to be a choice to be gay. What they don't understand is that 1) they aren't as straight as they thought and 2) some people are attracted exclusively to the same sex.

That's my guess anyway. But then I have AS, so I'm not exactly qualified to be judging what goes on in other people's minds.

Oh, and to address something in WilliamWDelaney's post: mercifully there a lot are more people who are tolerant of homosexuality than just potheads and atheists. For example, the United Church of Canada is very accepting and I'm pretty sure that not everyone member would do drugs.

It probably should be locked since the subject matter is inherently controversial. I'm merely responding from a purely PPR perspective--that being I am under the assumption that the matter really is open to discussion. Once you open up things for discussion like that, you open yourself up to the risk that offensive opinions are going to come out--and by that I mean opinions that are offensive on both sides of the discussion. I think perhaps this thread should be moved to LGBT if some participants feel it should have a measure of protection in a one-sided discussion.


I have no need to backpedal. I made no comparisons, at least not equating them in any sense. The act of murder is acting on a feeling, an emotion, etc. It's also a behavior to which some people may be predisposed. If you claim to be "born gay" and just later discovered it, you can in the same way claim to be born a murderer and to only having discovered it the first time you killed someone. My point was that the act of committing a crime was a choice someone could make, just like someone might make the choice to "come out." People could live their entire lives controlling feelings of rage so that they never commit murder. People could ALSO live their lives "in the closet" if they do not want to live a homosexual lifestyle. It happens more often you might think that people decide that they do not want same-sex attractions and seek alternatives, whether those alternatives are being celibate or learning how to coexist in a heterosexual, traditional marriage. It appears to me that someone is jumping to unnecessary conclusions and making this about homophobia when it is only about what one can and cannot choose to do. And I've already stated that the tendency towards same-sex attraction is not something we choose.


Just answered that. I'm just demonstrating that there is a difference between what one feels or is more-or-less predisposed to and the actions one actually commits. Having feelings does not compel you accept any given course of action based on those feelings. Ultimately you do what you WANT to do.


This is true.


Good question. Why should they?

BTW, I can love whoever I want. What matters in the end is where my loyalties are at the end of the day. Did I give into romantic or sexual feelings for someone else, or is it more important that I set aside those feelings and keep what rightfully belongs just between me and wife? Staying loyal to my wife is just evidence that I'm able to keep those emotions and urges in check. I COULD choose otherwise. I just happen to choose fidelity above all else.


That's not the purpose of this discussion. What we're talking about HERE is whether one CAN choose to "be gay." My contention is simply that no one can choose their feelings, urges, predispositions, attractions, etc. Those are things you're born with. What you DO choose is what you do with those things--accept it, act on it, or choose alternatives. So far my point seems to be proven with some of the other respondents in here. Visagrunt and I tend to agree on a lot of things in principle even if those principles sometimes lead us to different conclusions.


REALLY? I mean...seriously, really??? And exactly what was the supposed rationale for why you could not marry your wife? If you're going by NT marriage guidelines, assuming you're talking about Christianity, the only reason you shouldn't marry someone is if that person follows a different religion. And, like I said, it's more of a "guideline" than a hard/fast rule. The rationale is that someone of a different religion could distract or lead you away from following Christ, especially if worshipping other gods or whatever is to become a household routine. It's not a set-in-stone rule because the NT writer also knew the potential for Christians to convert spouses to the faith if they stayed together. The only other reason marriage might be prohibitive is if you're a Jew, you're not allowed (as per OT law) to marry a non-Jew. A personal choice of mine was to marry within my race and culture as well as religion--though I fell somewhat short by marrying a Methodist instead of a Baptist. But that was simply because I value my heritage and felt the best way I could pass that along to my children was to have children with someone a lot more like myself. Not everyone is concerned about those kinds of things, but marriage is a personal choice that everyone has to decide for themselves. I just happen to think that love is only one of many factors.

I can't figure out this multi quote thing so to answer your question about why I could not marry my wife, My wife is Black and I am White... Doh! Prohibiting interracial marriage is the same as prohibiting same-sex marriage. different time same stupid arguments...

So the point you are trying to make is that Gay people do not choose to be gay but they can choose not to act on those feeling and deny themselves the right to love another person???

I think that the meme "being gay is not a choice" is both confusing and politically unwise.

It is confusing because there is no sharp philosophical distinction between a predisposition and a choice. If you believe that your physical brain is the representation of your personality, then it follows that all the things which you do can be explained as the result of physical law. So, which are predispositions and which are choices?

It is politically unwise because it plays into the hands of the homophobes. By saying that it is important that being gay isn't a choice, you are implying that if it were a choice then it would be reasonable to expect people to not be gay. But it wouldn't! Being gay is a civil liberties issue, not an "I can't help it so please tolerate me" issue.