Why do so many people think that abortion is acceptable?

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robo37
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12 Nov 2012, 7:08 am

Even ignoring the most common "I'm going to abort because I CBA with a baby" cases and talking exclusively about rape victims as these people do, if they were given the choice between being the product of a rape and never existing at all I think it's apparent what the majority of them would prefer. Don't they realise that they're being hypocritical saying that it doesn't matter so long a the mother can choose to abort, whilst also being greatful that their mother didn't?

I mean imagine this for second, imagine your mother had an abortion.

- You would never had been able to experiance the world around you.
- You would have never of seen the beauty of nature or the universe around you. For example you would have stunned by the beauty of a specific site of a landscape or an animal, all you would ever have seen (if anything at all) is the inside of your mothers room.
- Ever felt happiness? Love? You wouldn't have been able to experiance this either. Of course there is also a lot of negative emotions you'd be without, but all this is just part of the experiance of life. If you think living a "bad" life is worse that living at all you may as well tell depressed people they're better off killing themselves too?
- You'd never have heard and experianced your favourite music, film, TV shows, books, games, etc. Unless you're favourite song happens to be your mothers as well. Then you might have heard it muffled through your mothers womb...
- You'd not have and would never have had ANYONE that means anything in your life. No one for you to care about, no one to care about you.

All of this is likely a benifit to the mother (or farther, let's not forget the farther in this) as well. We all know about, if not experianced, how joyous it is for a parent to hear their childs first word or watch them fist make friends.

And then on top of that it will give something for the mother, and farther, to focus on. Rape victims (also holds true for people who have been bullied, are overly isolated, lonely, mentally ill, prone to abuse and so on, again I'm just going to focus on rape victims because that seems to be the subject pro-choice pressure groups like to talk about) often end up feeling worthless, unwanted, depressed, isolated, hopeless in life; having a baby will give them something to live for and something to focus on, they'd be able to look back and say "You know what, I felt hopless and lost, I was searched for something to give my life some kind of meaning, to find some ambitions in life, something to tell me that although life is a rocky road, there is "light at the end of the tunnel" as to speak. That "something" was inside of me all along.

I am not religious at all, but it doesn't take a genius to understand how valuable life is.



Species5618
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12 Nov 2012, 7:33 am

The world is overpopulated as it is. Life is really not as valuable as people claim it is. If the human population would be halved, the world in general would be better off.

You list a number of positive qualities that someone could have in their life. This is too much of a rose-tinted-goggles outlook, as life can be quite harsh as well. Think about debilitating cogenital defects. Or simply that unwanted children have a higher probability of having an unhappy childhood, because many parents of these kids may not be willing to make the sacrifices required to give a kid a good upbringing.

If you are so in favour of giving every potential child a chance at life, surely you also object condoms, the pill, and other forms of family planning? After all, a load shot into a rubber could've been a happy child that would experience the world, the beauty of nature, love and happiness and all that.

And finally, I doubt that there are many raped women who consider a child from that event to be a positive thing, the way you describe it. Pregnancy is an extremely draining process physically and emotionally even when you choose for it. It will be far more so when it was forced upon you in a violent way. And afterwards, you will always have a reminder of that event rather than a child with the partner you love. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.



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12 Nov 2012, 7:35 am

the reason is some people know the development of a brain and gives special treatment to persons because they are sentient beings, every single special property humans have come from that, not because they are human.

for other every single special property comes a priori because we are human and everything else is second to that.

i prefer the first way of thinking because it allows me to take every single living being into account, were i to meet an intelligent alien then they too would have similar rights to humans because they are sentient beings.

if we found some animal on earth with near human intelligence then that would also gain a proportionate ammount of rights.

my issue with all of the nonsensical "bu your mother could have aborted you" is that had the man ejaculated a few seconds later it would have the exact same effect of an aboprtion, that particular sperm wouldnt have become anything and it would have been a different person that was born.

on a personal note, your description of rape victims is way out of line and i find you disgusting for it.


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robo37
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12 Nov 2012, 7:53 am

Species5618 wrote:
If you are so in favour of giving every potential child a chance at life, surely you also object condoms, the pill, and other forms of family planning?


There's a difference between single cells and developing organisms. I highly doubt sperm cells are capable of any kind of consciousness or independant thought.

Oodain wrote:
on a personal note, your description of rape victims is way out of line and i find you disgusting for it.


I don't know which part of my post you found offensive but note that I said that they often feel worthless etc., which is what physiatrists and the like agree on. That's very different to saying that they are worthless, which I don't think is true at all and using this as an argument against abortion would be sick. I just was explaining how having a baby could help with this emotional trauma (granted in may ways it could also easily make it worse, but I'm confident that the long run they would be better off).



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12 Nov 2012, 8:16 am

robo37 wrote:
Species5618 wrote:
If you are so in favour of giving every potential child a chance at life, surely you also object condoms, the pill, and other forms of family planning?


There's a difference between single cells and developing organisms. I highly doubt sperm cells are capable of any kind of consciousness or independant thought.


A small clump of cells isn't capable of consciousness or independent thought either. It has the potential to become that, if nurtured properly, but then again so does a sperm cell (albeit a smaller chance).

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Oodain wrote:
on a personal note, your description of rape victims is way out of line and i find you disgusting for it.


I don't know which part of my post you found offensive but note that I said that they often feel worthless etc., which is what physiatrists and the like agree on. That's very different to saying that they are worthless, which I don't think is true at all and using this as an argument against abortion would be sick. I just was explaining how having a baby could help with this emotional trauma (granted in may ways it could also easily make it worse, but I'm confident that the long run they would be better off).


So you think it's in any way acceptable to force a raped woman to go through 9 months of all kinds of physical and emotional problems only to end up with a child that will continue to remind them of the rape? Every time the child asks about his dad (or when someone else asks), the woman is reminded of the rape. Let the victims just put the past behind them and have a child with a partner they love, if they want to.



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12 Nov 2012, 8:18 am

and what perchance do you think makes them feel that way?

what do you think a child that came from that would mean to the parents, it would be more likely it would serve as a reminder and not help. (your confidence in the matter means bupkiss, it is far more likely that the mother will harbor at least some form of negative emotions towards the child, which in turn will make it more probable that the child itself will suffer on top of the mother being reminded.)

as for the difference bettween developing organisms and single cells, almost functionally non existent for some parts of the pregnancy, there is no more thought or capacity for suffering in a zygote than there is in a sperm cell.


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robo37
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12 Nov 2012, 8:36 am

If the abortion was carried out within days of the pregnancy then there likely would be no consciousness, but when were talking months the baby has long had a brain and a pumping heart that makes the organism run under it's own accord. You've seen the pictures, they are extremely complex compared to a sperm or egg. Sperm cells are like any other cells but are made with the purpose of reproduction rather than any of the other various roles a cell can have, just like neurons clearly don't have any value on their own whilst as an organism they create something far more complex and valuable.



Last edited by robo37 on 12 Nov 2012, 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yuxi
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12 Nov 2012, 8:36 am

Also, if it makes you feel better: "acceptable" doesn't mean "common sense".

It only means it may apply in some cases depending on the free will of the individuals concerned.

Nothing about your mother or mine here :wink:



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12 Nov 2012, 9:11 am

robo37: You're 18 years old, and you're male. Between your youth and your gender, you have little or nothing to add to a conversation about the thoughts and feelings of a rape victim who becomes or might become pregnant as a result of the assault she has suffered. Once you have been through the experience, or have experienced this kind of trauma through the suffering of someone close to you, you might have something to say about it. Right now, it's just BS. For the millions of women who've suffered this kind of assault, it's real, and your pontificating is insulting. Their choices have nothing to do with you. Their choices as to their bodies were violently taken from them during the course of the rape. They have a right to make medical decisions as to their care, of their bodies, following that trauma. You have no right to be involved. None. However a woman manages to survive a trauma of this magnitude is HER business. It's between her and her doctor, and whatever of HER loved ones she chooses to involve. That's IT.



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12 Nov 2012, 9:33 am

jat wrote:
robo37: You're 18 years old, and you're male. Between your youth and your gender, you have little or nothing to add to a conversation about the thoughts and feelings of a rape victim who becomes or might become pregnant as a result of the assault she has suffered. Once you have been through the experience, or have experienced this kind of trauma through the suffering of someone close to you, you might have something to say about it. Right now, it's just BS. For the millions of women who've suffered this kind of assault, it's real, and your pontificating is insulting. Their choices have nothing to do with you. Their choices as to their bodies were violently taken from them during the course of the rape. They have a right to make medical decisions as to their care, of their bodies, following that trauma. You have no right to be involved. None. However a woman manages to survive a trauma of this magnitude is HER business. It's between her and her doctor, and whatever of HER loved ones she chooses to involve. That's IT.


So what if I'm 18 years old and male, that doesn't mean that my opinions don't matter. I have the upmost sympathy for the rape victims and am not misvaluing how real it is and am in no way claiming it to be anything other than a vile and discusting crime, but that is entirely different to saying that entitles them the power to choose whether something live or dies. Yes it's her body. Likewise the baby is the baby's body. 9 months of pregnancy is nothing compared to an entire lifespan. Claiming it's "nothing to do to me" means nothing, school massacres have "nothing to with me" and they have "nothing to do with" anyone that isn't a relative or friend of the people involved, which of course the vast majority of the country. This does not mean that these friends and reletives should solely be in charge of handling for the issue of mass shootings, and that the voice of the people is irrelevant. When something is clearly immoral any prospect of a right to choose should cleary no longer take effect as it rightfully already does with most things that are considered immoral. It's okay to kill because rape is worse is NOT a valid argument, and is little more than an excuse to commit something that should be crime.



Last edited by robo37 on 12 Nov 2012, 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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12 Nov 2012, 9:33 am

robo37 wrote:
If the abortion was carried out within days of the pregnancy then there likely would be no consciousness, but when were talking months the baby has long had a brain and a pumping heart that makes the organism run under it's own accord. You've seen the pictures, they are extremely complex compared to a sperm or egg. Sperm cells are like any other cells but are made with the purpose of reproduction rather than any of the other various roles a cell can have, just like neurons clearly don't have any value on their own whilst as an organism they create something far more complex and valuable.


yes but in the west we already have a limit that takes care of that, it goes from around 9 to 12 weeks and only major complications can change that, so in essence it is a non issue if that is your argument.


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12 Nov 2012, 9:56 am

robo37 wrote:
And then on top of that it will give something for the mother, and farther, to focus on. Rape victims . . . often end up feeling worthless, unwanted, depressed, isolated, hopeless in life; having a baby will give them something to live for and something to focus on,


You're putting a lot of pressure on a little baby and I think you're oversimplifying things a bit. A baby places a huge demand on it's parents. In the case of postpartum depression, the opposite of what you are saying occurs.



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12 Nov 2012, 9:56 am

Just because you consider a few cells, that you would not recognize as human if you were to see them, to be the equivalent of a person who is here on earth and can breathe and eat without having to get those essentials of life through another human being's body, doesn't mean everyone else agrees with you. You are welcome to your beliefs, but when you try to force them on other people, other people push back. No one is telling you that you have to agree to abortion - just don't interfere with other people's beliefs and choices. Abortion has always existed; perhaps you should think about whether, since it has always existed, it should be, in your mind, a capital offense. Many women have died as a result of botched, back-alley abortions. Also, many women have died as a result of not being able to obtain abortions when their lives were threatened by pregnancies that should have been terminated, but weren't. Women also still die in childbirth. Why should women not have the right to protect their lives, rather than risk them in childbirth? Why should legislators and "religious leaders" have more to say about these issues than doctors do?



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12 Nov 2012, 10:25 am

Abortion in cases of rape, incest, and the life of the mother you can morally justify in my opinion but I don't think that is case in the majority abortions.

I've thought about abortion a lot recently, I think what people forget there isn't just one party to it. You have the mother but there is also the father and most importantly the child whose life hangs in the balance. A man can't force a woman to get an abortion but we as a society demand that he supports that child. We accept this level of personal responsibility for ones actions, why can't we ask the same for a woman that becomes pregnant thru consensual means? It seems only consistent. If you believe that a woman should be able to wash her hands of her unborn child then why can't a man do the same? At least in the case of the man you aren't taking a life.



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12 Nov 2012, 10:33 am

Jacoby wrote:
I've thought about abortion a lot recently, I think what people forget there isn't just one party to it. You have the mother but there is also the father and most importantly the child whose life hangs in the balance. A man can't force a woman to get an abortion but we as a society demand that he supports that child. We accept this level of personal responsibility for ones actions, why can't we ask the same for a woman that becomes pregnant thru consensual means? It seems only consistent. If you believe that a woman should be able to wash her hands of her unborn child then why can't a man do the same? At least in the case of the man you aren't taking a life.


The rights of the father may be different in other countries, but in the Netherlands, an unmarried father has to choose to legally acknowledge the child as his (this is not necessarily dependent on being the biological father) and only then does he get the responsibilities (and rights) that come with having the child. This acknowledgement is an option, so a child that is unwanted by the father, but wanted by the mother, may not be acknowledged by the father, which means he has no responsibilities, but also no rights to be involved in the raising of the child.

For children below 16yr, the mother has to consent with the acknowledgement of the father and children of age 12 or above also get a say in the matter.

This whole system seems rather fair towards both parents. The only "issue" is that it only applies to unmarried couples. If the couple is married at the time of birth, the husband is automatically listed as the father (regardless of who the biological father is).