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Oldavid
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06 May 2015, 5:18 pm

Mere chemical reactions, perhaps?



0_equals_true
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06 May 2015, 6:10 pm

Yes and no.

A virus is not living, but it reacts. As in the reservoir's cells replicate the virus, becuase it contains DNA instructions to do so and cell complies (assuming it is not stopped by anti-bodies), or is able to pass the (soft) entry points.

Is a virus a product of life, or maybe proto-virus were a precursor to abiogenesis. We know that some viruses "attack" or change the make up of other viruses so they can interact with each other, like a chain reaction.

I think the extremes of life are interesting like extremophiles, and alternate lifeforms (including hypothetical biochemistry)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04183.html

Life is subject to it environment. Some life is more adaptable, however the most adaptable tend tot bring the environment with them or construct their own. We do it to a extent.

You could say that one definition of life is encoded information, with a self contain mechanism for playing out and replicating that information for development, and reacting to its environment, then duplicating (procreation) with variance.

The encoding is chemical, but so is everything even inorganic matter.



Janissy
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06 May 2015, 6:27 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Mere chemical reactions, perhaps?

Well no because then the pasta sauce I just made would be alive since the tomatoes reacted with the cast iron pan it was made in.

This is an incredibly dificult question masquerading as a simple one. The classic description (of both laymen and scientists) has been descriptive: metabolism, homeostasis, response to stimuli,growth, reproduction. Without those, something has either died or was never alive in the first place.

The problem with the above (incomplete) laundry list of characteristics is that it's completely cellular. The discovery of viruses challenged that. They stand on a weird border where they certainly don't fit the cellular definition of life we have used for millenia (people just used different terms to describe those functions and didn't use "cellular" for most of those millenia). But they also don't fit non-life very well. They can be killed (or at least deconstructed, inactivated which we still call "killed" since they can no longer infect) so doesn't that imply they were alive? Yes. No. It's complicated.

The other challenge is our reliance on metabolism to tell when life has ended. All activity has stopped. The person has died. The machines we use to measure this activity show none. But then sometimes they do. So we get very confused about the border between alive and dead. Did activity continue but our current technology can't measure it? Did it stop and restart? It's not obvious.

So I can't even say "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" because I don't. I don't know if a virus is alive. I don't know if the apparent cessation of cellular activity means the person is not alive.



DentArthurDent
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06 May 2015, 6:41 pm

David you still at it. Ok so we have definitively shown that your idea that entropy denies complexity, is complete nonsense. You are now delving into the realm of the speculative. The issue here is how the first replicating molecules came into existence, and in truth we do not yet know. Of course you in your great wisdom will beat your chest, stating that this means "god did it"
However as THIS article shows, science is getting closer and closer to the answer.

In response to your bait, yes life is just "mere chemical reactions" and I challenge you to prove different. However as Janissy has pointed out not all chemical reactions constitute life.


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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 06 May 2015, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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06 May 2015, 6:44 pm

It's something that's evolved from a protein state.

On a personal level, it's "what you make of it."



naturalplastic
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06 May 2015, 9:42 pm

It's a box of chocolates!



aghogday
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06 May 2015, 10:38 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
David you still at it. Ok so we have definitively shown that your idea that entropy denies complexity, is complete nonsense. You are now delving into the realm of the speculative. The issue here is how the first replicating molecules came into existence, and in truth we do not yet know. Of course you in your great wisdom will beat your chest, stating that this means "god did it"
However as THIS article shows, science is getting closer and closer to the answer.

In response to your bait, yes life is just "mere chemical reactions" and I challenge you to prove different. However as Janissy has pointed out not all chemical reactions constitute life.


HA! BullH**!

IN part, human life is chemical reactions; but it is also the 'quantum' affect and effect of relative human FREE will developed in emotions, imagination, and creativity THROUGH GREATER PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE that is a synergistic effect and affect of human being that makes the difference between being a frigging robot knot on the log TYPING AWAY AT CRYSTALIZED KNOWLEDGE, and someone who can dance all night long at age 54 with beautiful girls like me, as already evidenced here ad-nauseam, IN WHAT I will be doing tomorrow night for the 57th documented week again; with yes, 'photos or it didn't happen', too..;)

For a person who does not develop relative free will; this kind of life of freedom that I live, simply does not exist.

So yeah, perhaps you are a pile of chemical reactions; but I am free-based human relative will, baby, all the way, as a creative force I control with the God of Nature, of course at my back, as I simply understand my potential, as unlimited by the POWER OF MY human relative free will, aka the metaphor for the Quantum Human Mind unleashed and released.

Crystalized knowledge is just a parrot, more or less.

Show me what you create, and prove to me you are alive.

Know that's a challenge that I can just bet that no one here will dare to evidence but me.

As I just do it every frigging day and document it thoroughly all the time; just in case one day,
more folks follow suit in these mechanical ways of crystalized knowledge only; and fuller potential
human beings cease to exist. At least with me, it will prove that 'we' exist at least one point in time WITH
RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL AND GREATER HUMAN IMAGINATIVE AND CREATIVE INTELLIGENCE UNLEASHED
IN ALL ITS HUMAN
GLORY WITH THE GLORY
OF THE GOD NATURE
AS
WELL..;)

Life is only reduced to material reductionism for the folks who practice that 'religion'; clear note:
practice not follow; as many folks do not even realize they practice a religion of robot human
being, almost from birth, at truly no fault of their own; but fostered by a mechanical cognition
leaning culture directed by external forces of culture; rather than ever developing human
innate instinct and intuition to simply BE ALL one CAN BE, and truly free with relative
human free will sought, found, employed, utilized, practiced continually through
much greater imaginative and creative physical intelligence to regulate
emotions, integrate senses, and enhance cognitive executive
functioning through greater focus and short term working
memory. Yeah, that's a whole lot more than
chemical
reactions;
synergy
baby,
synergy;
is the way
of 'greater' life.

AND NAH,
YA AIN'T GOTTA join the ARMY;
JUST JOIN FORCES WITH THE GOD OF
NATURE, AND The all natural human
potential possible WITHIN............:)


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aghogday
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06 May 2015, 10:53 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
It's a box of chocolates!


Yes, as a REAL LIFE FORREST GUMP;

LIFE IS A BOX OF CHOCOLATES.

I CAN VOUCH FOR the FACT

THAT IS TRUE,

as i continue to
float like a feather
through life;
and reap
all the benefits
of the tasty chocolates
ALL tHere to consume;
however, I DAM well pLEASE..;)

AND yeah, Unlike FICTIONAL FORREST;
I'VE already ONE UPPED HIM
by dancing 3500 miles;
instead, of just
RUNNING
ACROSS
the
US.

AND NAH, HE Does NOT
parallel leg press
almost half a ton
with his legs,
14 times
slowly,
with
his arms
raised in the air either;
or do that dance thingy
I'm doing tomorrow
night for 57 weeks;
OR write
literary
millions of
free verse
poetic words;
but nah;
i cannot
beat that
Vietnam
Thingy;
and that's
for sure..;)

But WAIT!
HOLD ON A
MOMENT; THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
ME AND HIM IS; I AM REAL.
AND I CAN PROVE THAT TOO
in living flesh and blood color
without a frigging avatar of what
ever, or a fictional movie star named
Hank or
TOM
or DICK
or HARRY.


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DentArthurDent
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06 May 2015, 11:18 pm

aghogday wrote:

HA! BullH**!




I tell you what is BS. Making up crap with no evidence. Show empirically any part of life that is not a chemical reaction of some sort. You can make up all the airy fairy nonsense you like, being delusional does not make the delusion real beyond your own mind.

And since when has lIfe had anything to do with free will. Or are you going to tell me that plants have free will. If you want to go off on a tangent about what constitutes sentience be my guest, but please do not make it a prerequisite for life. Even then sentience has at its base, chemical reactions.

As for being reductionist, IE seeing life for what it is. GK Chesterton summed it up best (and it is advice you would do well to take) “Do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out.”


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slave
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07 May 2015, 12:12 am

aghogday wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:


Yes, as a REAL LIFE FORREST GUMP;

LIFE IS A BOX OF CHOCOLATES.

I CAN VOUCH FOR the FACT

THAT IS TRUE,

as i continue to
float like a feather
through life;
and reap
all the benefits
of the tasty chocolates
ALL tHere to consume;
however, I DAM well pLEASE..;)

AND yeah, Unlike FICTIONAL FORREST;
I'VE already ONE UPPED HIM
by dancing 3500 miles;
instead, of just
RUNNING
ACROSS
the
US.

AND NAH, HE Does NOT
parallel leg press
almost half a ton
with his legs,
14 times
slowly,
with
his arms
raised in the air either;
or do that dance thingy
I'm doing tomorrow
night for 57 weeks;
OR write
literary
millions of
free verse
poetic words;
but nah;
i cannot
beat that
Vietnam
Thingy;
and that's
for sure..;)

But WAIT!
HOLD ON A
MOMENT; THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
ME AND HIM IS; I AM REAL.
AND I CAN PROVE THAT TOO
in living flesh and blood color
without a frigging avatar of what
ever, or a fictional movie star named
Hank or
TOM
or DICK
or HARRY.



Is EVERY thread ABOUT your PHYSICAL prowess?



aghogday
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07 May 2015, 12:20 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
aghogday wrote:

HA! BullH**!




I tell you what is BS. Making up crap with no evidence. Show empirically any part of life that is not a chemical reaction of some sort. You can make up all the airy fairy nonsense you like, being delusional does not make the delusion real beyond your own mind.

And since when has lIfe had anything to do with free will. Or are you going to tell me that plants have free will. If you want to go off on a tangent about what constitutes sentience be my guest, but please do not make it a prerequisite for life. Even then sentience has at its base, chemical reactions.

As for being reductionist, IE seeing life for what it is. GK Chesterton summed it up best (and it is advice you would do well to take) “Do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out.”


Dude, believe IT or not, imagination and creativity are real.

And 'they' are much more than chemical reactions, alone.

I am just glad; oh so glad, I do not live in reductionist
shoes
anymore; AS YOU DO
REMIND ME OF ME,
THEN, UGH, YES,
THEN, TOO.

AND believe it or not
with emotions, imagination
and creativity
or not,
I hope the same for you;
but hope my friend, is an emotion
that you may or may not experience,
along with faith and belief that are also
emotions along with relative free will, which
is a synergy of emotions and human senses
either experienced and employed or NOT;
and all the spectrum of purgatory in
between.

Mr. Fnord,
already suggests that none of these
are emotions; so no doubt he does not believe,
as faith, hope, and believe are all HUMAN EMOTIONS
THAT ARE THE BACKBONE, PER METAPHOR, OF HUMAN
RELATIVE FREE WILL; AND SURE IF YOU WANT TO BE
A VEGETABLE INSTEAD OF HUMAN BEING;
BE YOUR OWN GUEST, OR APARAGUS,
OR WHATEVER YA LIKE, MY FRIEND..:)

BUT I FOR ONE, AM HUMAN WITH MIGHTY POWERFUL RELATIVE
HUMAN FREE WILL that nah, plants don't have; A FULLER CHILD
OF THE GOD NATURE THAN
MOST;

MY friend..;)

And no my friend; emotion FILLED humans are non-repeatable experiments;
so the scientific method has no way to accurately measure emotions LIKE MINE;
so yah; you can believe or not; live or not; but never the less, what
I do with my human relative free will in terms of human
creativity is real; and that my friend is as good
as systemizing scientists can get to show
the results of creativity
MAKES IT
REAL;
and that is where ALL THE IRREFUTABLE
FRIGGING EVIDENCE OF WHAT I DO IN
REAL FLESH AND BLOOD
LIFE COMES IN MY
FRIEND, if you have
the kinda brain
in human potential
to ever ever GET THAT;
BUT IF NOT THAT'S OK
TOO; AS no one proves
that the GOD of Nature
is fair either; so in that
case; I guess, I'm just
one of the chosen
ones and you
are not;
so in that case
maybe the bible
thumpers
are
correct,
in metaphor
at least, per
the all natural
GOD OF NATURE'S
RELATIONSHIP
WITH HUMAN
NATURE;
FAIR OR
NOT;
IN that
case, Karma
is looking better
or worse every now.


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aghogday
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07 May 2015, 12:32 am

slave wrote:
aghogday wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:


Yes, as a REAL LIFE FORREST GUMP;

LIFE IS A BOX OF CHOCOLATES.

I CAN VOUCH FOR the FACT

THAT IS TRUE,

as i continue to
float like a feather
through life;
and reap
all the benefits
of the tasty chocolates
ALL tHere to consume;
however, I DAM well pLEASE..;)

AND yeah, Unlike FICTIONAL FORREST;
I'VE already ONE UPPED HIM
by dancing 3500 miles;
instead, of just
RUNNING
ACROSS
the
US.

AND NAH, HE Does NOT
parallel leg press
almost half a ton
with his legs,
14 times
slowly,
with
his arms
raised in the air either;
or do that dance thingy
I'm doing tomorrow
night for 57 weeks;
OR write
literary
millions of
free verse
poetic words;
but nah;
i cannot
beat that
Vietnam
Thingy;
and that's
for sure..;)

But WAIT!
HOLD ON A
MOMENT; THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
ME AND HIM IS; I AM REAL.
AND I CAN PROVE THAT TOO
in living flesh and blood color
without a frigging avatar of what
ever, or a fictional movie star named
Hank or
TOM
or DICK
or HARRY.



Is EVERY thread ABOUT your PHYSICAL prowess?


Dude, human physicality per emotions like love AND power
IN HUMAN ALPHA strength for SURVIVAL is what is REAL IN LIFE;
PER PHILOSOPHY, less OR more.

THE REST is more or less
meaningless fluff.

I am a realist of a philosopher;
not totally lost in abstract thought.

So go ahead, tell us
and SHOW US
about what you
really are too.

I would love to
see you do more
too, than words
here alone.

For starters, you
could show your
face, if you
like; that's
the first
step
to be real
online, too.

IT IS TOTALLY HUMANLY
NORMAL TO SHARE ACCOMPLISHMENTS
AND reciprocate that in social reciprocal
communication, my friend; here or anywhere
humans live. So sue me, for being normal; ok..;)

I 'cured', per remediation of symptoms, my Autism;
and all of this is JUST MORE PROOF
OF
THAT.

AND HA! 'they' said it couldn't be done; just more proof
of all natural human miracles;
my friend, from me;
shared totally
humanly as
such, here.

I think you can do it too; but you have to think that
and BELIEVE THAT TOO; AND TAKE ACTION
TO RESOLVE ISSUES; JUST AS I DID IN
TOTAL HUMAN
SUCCESS in real life
too.


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guzzle
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07 May 2015, 12:48 am

LIFE IS A SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED CONDITION WITH A 100% MORTALITY RATE.

For plants it's a different story though, they can multiply vegetatively :D



aghogday
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07 May 2015, 1:23 am

guzzle wrote:
LIFE IS A SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED CONDITION WITH A 100% MORTALITY RATE.

For plants it's a different story though, they can multiply vegetatively :D


Ah, but not quite, technically speaking, in the digital art of human being for NOW.

While both humans and plants can multiply through reproduction; with humans
not cloning nearly as well, naturally speaking;

Human beings, even if cloned, will turn out different in ways of heart, soul,
and spirit expressed therein, and OUT; per different environmental factors,
exposed to as such.

Ah ha! but tHere is another way to keep going long after the coffin is lowered
in the ground or the bones are burned to ashes in cremation and stored in
urns, and such as that.

AND THAT IS to upload one's heart and soul online, to live as real, as long
as servers serve out the spirit of emotion expressed in human heArt and
soul expressed online.

But wait2; that's already happened with Elvis, and Beethoven, and so
many other artists who have recorded their hearts and souls in spirit..
in spirit of mediums of art that continue to exist and inspire the
hearts and souls of other human beings to express in spirit on
Google, Facebook, Youtube and all
other avenues for eternal
heart and soul life
of dead human
beings in digital
art life expressed
as human spirit
goes on.

And yes, haha! per NEW FORREST
GUMP ACCOMPLISHMENT, I'VE ALREADY
ACCOMPLISHED THAT MISSION FOREVER
AS LONG AS SERVERS CONTINUE TO SERVE
MY INSPIRATION IN ART FOR THOSE
WHO ARE CAPABLE OF
FEELING IT AND PUTTING
IT TO WORK in their
life too; like
a frigging
renewable
source
of
emotional
energy,
like
almost
all
You
Tube
songs, too!


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Oldavid
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07 May 2015, 1:58 am

Some fauna can reproduce asexually too. An amoeba will become two when it is big enough and well enough nourished.

Even so, a dead amoeba will not replicate itself and will decay into the simplest elements of its composition.

Even a virus can be a dead virus as opposed to a live one. A fair slice of pharmacology is about killing viruses. Hard to do if the ideology arbitrarily declares viruses to be the non-living link between non-living chemistry and the chemistry of live organisms.

But biology (the study of life) is astonishingly more intricate than the ideologues pushing the Materialist religion would dare contemplate.

There is a whole heap of difference between the chemistry and physics of a live organism and a dead one (even a virus). That difference, I suggest, is the stuff called "life" which is transmitted from a "live" thing and never from a non-live thing.



DentArthurDent
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07 May 2015, 3:57 am

Oldavid wrote:
Some fauna can reproduce asexually too. An amoeba will become two when it is big enough and well enough nourishment.
what is your point. Asexual and Sexual reproduction both reproduce life.

oldavid wrote:
Even a virus can be a dead virus as opposed to a live one. A fair slice of pharmacology is about killing viruses. Hard to do if the ideology arbitrarily declares viruses to be the non-living link between non-living chemistry and the chemistry of live organisms.
Again apart from the obvious strawman regarding how vaccines work. What is your point

oldavid wrote:
But biology (the study of life) is astonishingly more intricate than the ideologues pushing the Materialist religion would dare contemplate.
kind of funny really as it would appear that it is the work of the so called Materialist religionists who are making all the discoveries. Maybe it has something to do with not accepting "god did it" as an answer.

oldavid wrote:
There is a whole heap of difference between the chemistry and physics of a live organism and a dead one (even a virus). That difference, I suggest, is the stuff called "life" which is transmitted from a "live" thing and never from a non-live thing.


Suggest all you like, when science discovers the answer you will no doubt call it fraud and lies and bury your head in the sand.

BTW could you please define what you mean by life and non life as you appear to be discussing a narrow band ie sentient life.


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