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kamiyu910
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16 May 2015, 11:25 pm

I recently got banned from a page for daring to say that not all men rape, because apparently saying we shouldn't be urging people to mistrust all men is triggering to rape survivors, because it somehow dismisses their experience??

The comic in question had a man and a woman exchanging phone numbers and in the last panel, the man is thinking, "I hope she didn't give me a fake number." While the woman is thinking, "I hope he doesn't rape and murder me." It was to insinuate that that's the worst fear men have about dating. My brother stated the man's side should be changed to, "I hope she doesn't falsely accuse me of rape." Because that's a much more closely related fear. Unfortunately, the SJWs took offence to that, claiming my brother was being dismissive and was being a rape apologist for it.

I don't understand why saying not all men are rapists is such a bad thing. I don't get why saying "mistrusting men is the same and mistrusting black people" is wrong. Mistrusting any one group of people just because of their gender/sex/color/etc is wrong. Why do they feel justified in their view? Am I misinterpreting them?

To give an idea, this was one of my brother's comments:

Quote:
I think you're confused about what I've said because of the typical responses you get to this comic. I never said women shouldn't be concerned, I merely suggested changing the male side of the comic to match something more serious that men do think about, but also happens quite rarely. Remember we're talking about rape & murder here.


And then the last comment posted to me and my brother before we were banned:

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Okay, here's the deal. You have made this space unsafe. I am getting PM's that you have triggered survivors with your dismissive behavior, and that is not okay.

You can walk away or stick around and read and maybe learn something, although given what you've said, I don't imagine it will be an easy read for you. However, if you want to comment again on this thread, you need to tell these nice people you're sorry for playing the typical tropes of rape apology. And if you don't know what those are you can PM me and I'll be glad to have a nice rational conversation about it (seriously, I'm not being snarky; I will) or you can spend some time on Google figuring it out for yourself. But if another comment lands that is more of the same, I'll be blocking you.


(I also have no idea on what the deal is with trigger warnings??)


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Dox47
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17 May 2015, 12:19 am

They suck, you should avoid them.


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pezar
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17 May 2015, 2:26 am

Back when Usenet existed, I once wandered into a forum called alt.rape...and immediately ran away screaming. Lots of really angry, hateful women who need therapy to deal with their trauma but who instead choose to hate all males and label them as "potential rapists". Lots of women on rape trauma forums have PTSD which needs to be treated. The reference to "triggers" is likely referring to PTSD "flashbacks".



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17 May 2015, 4:19 am

To be honest, without a link to the thread anything we say is largely speculation.

kamiyu910 wrote:
I recently got banned from a page for daring to say that not all men rape, because apparently saying we shouldn't be urging people to mistrust all men is triggering to rape survivors, because it somehow dismisses their experience??

OK, "triggering" - these people seem to be using that phrase incorrectly. Maybe some of them really have PTSD which is triggered by things like what you did, but it seems more likely to me that they're using a legitimate mental health issue as a thought-terminating cliché.

If I were you, I'd try to disassociate that word with the context they used it in, in the same way you do when someone jokes about having autism if they make a small social faux-pas.
Quote:
The comic in question had a man and a woman exchanging phone numbers and in the last panel, the man is thinking, "I hope she didn't give me a fake number." While the woman is thinking, "I hope he doesn't rape and murder me." It was to insinuate that that's the worst fear men have about dating. My brother stated the man's side should be changed to, "I hope she doesn't falsely accuse me of rape." Because that's a much more closely related fear. Unfortunately, the SJWs took offence to that, claiming my brother was being dismissive and was being a rape apologist for it.

Whilst that is a more "closely related" fear, I don't think it's relevant. The point of the comic is probably to illustrate actual common fears, rather than a worst-case scenario. I don't think false rape accusations are something most men actually worry about, whereas, rightly or wrongly, many women do worry about being sexually assaulted.

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I don't understand why saying not all men are rapists is such a bad thing. I don't get why saying "mistrusting men is the same and mistrusting black people" is wrong. Mistrusting any one group of people just because of their gender/sex/color/etc is wrong. Why do they feel justified in their view? Am I misinterpreting them?

It's hard for me to say without the full context, but I think there's a decent chance you're talking at cross purposes with them.

Saying "not all men are rapists" and "rape is rare" in a discussion about rape can feel like an attack of the legitimacy of their claims, even though they are factually accurate statements. The chances are, they know that not all men are rapists. You're not being helpful and your post only serves to draw away from their discussion. Of course, if they were saying "all men are rapists" then your comments could be useful.

Having said that, NTs don't always just use conversation to exchange information and work out the truth. Sometimes they are establishing group identity or things like that. By showing that they all agree on a topic, they bond and can have more useful discussions later. Your contrary opinions don't serve any purpose because they're not looking to establish what is true, they're just looking for a bit of bonding. Often these types of conversations can become reasonable ones when a dissenting voice speaks up, but rape is a highly emotive topic and the chances are the participants have drawn their battle lines very firmly already.

Quote:
To give an idea, this was one of my brother's comments:

Quote:
I think you're confused about what I've said because of the typical responses you get to this comic. I never said women shouldn't be concerned, I merely suggested changing the male side of the comic to match something more serious that men do think about, but also happens quite rarely. Remember we're talking about rape & murder here.
It's possible this phrase was taken as implying false rape accusations are more serious than rape and murder, rather than not getting a real number.

Quote:
And then the last comment posted to me and my brother before we were banned:

Essentially, people wanting to downplay the seriousness of rape will often say many of the same things that you have said (false rape accusations, not all men, etc.). Whilst I don't think you were trying to do that, if you've spent years dealing with trolls who follow a persistent pattern then it can be hard to distinguish a reasonable opinion which touches many of the same bases. This is what she meant by "the tropes of rape apology".

General rule: if a moderator PMs you a warning and asks to clarify anything you're unsure of, you take them up on it
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(I also have no idea on what the deal is with trigger warnings??)

Properly used, they indicate that what you have created contains content that some viewers may find upsetting, so they can brace themselves or avoid it altogether. The "trigger" term comes particularly from PTSD, where some ordinary event can set off highly traumatic flashbacks. They're a bit overused in certain circles now, and you can question whether people should pay attention to them (is being disturbed by something good?), but I think they're broadly a good idea.



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17 May 2015, 5:01 am

Quote:
I recently got banned from a page for daring to say that not all men rape,...


I'm wondering why you thought it was necessary to say this. Not knowing exactly the context of the discussion, it could be that they think that you are deliberately trying to derail an important discussion.

In discussions on rape and the negative experiences women go through, coming in and saying something like "not all men rape,..." comes off as patronizing (since they already know that fact), derailing (since it changes the focus of the conversation), and devaluing (since it implies the comfort of men is more important than the very real experiences of female sexual assault victims).

If I were you, when I come across a discussion like that, I would defer. Show some respect.


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kamiyu910
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17 May 2015, 9:41 am

Being falsely accused has caused us a serious amount of trouble in the past 6 years, something that cost us my nephew and almost my brother. I have seen other men lose a lot of their life because they were falsely accused and end up on the sexual predator list for life. If you want to talk about triggers, saying that's not a legitimate fear is dismissing what we've been through, and what many others have been through. It is a legitimate fear that I know many men think about, so changing that side of the comic would have been realistic.

It sounds like I probably did overreact a bit, I was rather upset with how they were reacting to my brother, who stayed surprisingly calm.
The page is public https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 041&type=1


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17 May 2015, 10:08 am

Its hard to take SJWs seriously about rape when they invent things like stare and fart rape, god forbid somebody says "have a nice day" to them on the street because that's rape too. Some even consider all PIV to be rape. You have to understand that in the SJW world that they covet victimhood, that is where they derive their authority with each other from. The more maligned and oppressed they are, the more weight their opinion holds so obviously some definition stretching has happened. The cis white male is the devil to them, never mind the race of pretty much all the people "oppressing" them in their catcalling videos since they're lower on the oppression totem poll, it is only relevant as far as race goes when a cis white man does it and they tend to blame everything else on the "patriarchy" in general when it doesn't fit the racial narrative. (the oppressed can't oppressors!) Occupy Wall Street was pretty much killed by this line of thinking by employing ridiculous "progressive stack" techniques which drove away many potential leaders and intelligent people.

They're their own worst enemy as far as devaluing rape, that's what crying wolf so much does and that' why we have to say rape and then rape rape. Real physical rape can be a very hard crime to prove, impossible given certain circumstances and most times it isn't just some random person off the street either so a lot of the time it just comes down to he said-she said unfortunately with the burden of proof being on the person accusing the other of a crime. Is the presumption of innocence wrong, is it something you would want to give up? Of course false accusations happen too, some just have the good nature to just publish it in Rolling Stone magazine or their autobiography instead of actually filing a false report with police like a true sociopath would but that happens as well.



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17 May 2015, 3:25 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
Being falsely accused has caused us a serious amount of trouble in the past 6 years, something that cost us my nephew and almost my brother. I have seen other men lose a lot of their life because they were falsely accused and end up on the sexual predator list for life. If you want to talk about triggers, saying that's not a legitimate fear is dismissing what we've been through, and what many others have been through. It is a legitimate fear that I know many men think about, so changing that side of the comic would have been realistic.

It sounds like I probably did overreact a bit, I was rather upset with how they were reacting to my brother, who stayed surprisingly calm.
The page is public https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 041&type=1

There were lots of people being unpleasant there, and they were also using a lot of logical fallacies. Your brother wasn't one of them. I think you kinda went in firing from the hip and didn't really help him out.

I didn't say "false rape accusation is not a legitimate fear", because yes, that would destroy someone's life, potentially as much or more than being raped. I don't think it's very common, and consequently I don't think it's something most men fear. I do know from speaking to my friends that several of them have felt guilty about consensual sex and worried that they have caused emotional distress to their partners, but they've not worried about being reported for it (and rightly so, as they didn't break the law or actually do anything wrong).

(Also fwiw Jacoby et al. the admin in question is a "cis white male" and kamiyu is not)



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17 May 2015, 4:12 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Being falsely accused has caused us a serious amount of trouble in the past 6 years, something that cost us my nephew and almost my brother. I have seen other men lose a lot of their life because they were falsely accused and end up on the sexual predator list for life. If you want to talk about triggers, saying that's not a legitimate fear is dismissing what we've been through, and what many others have been through. It is a legitimate fear that I know many men think about, so changing that side of the comic would have been realistic.

It sounds like I probably did overreact a bit, I was rather upset with how they were reacting to my brother, who stayed surprisingly calm.
The page is public https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 041&type=1

There were lots of people being unpleasant there, and they were also using a lot of logical fallacies. Your brother wasn't one of them. I think you kinda went in firing from the hip and didn't really help him out.

I didn't say "false rape accusation is not a legitimate fear", because yes, that would destroy someone's life, potentially as much or more than being raped. I don't think it's very common, and consequently I don't think it's something most men fear. I do know from speaking to my friends that several of them have felt guilty about consensual sex and worried that they have caused emotional distress to their partners, but they've not worried about being reported for it (and rightly so, as they didn't break the law or actually do anything wrong).

(Also fwiw Jacoby et al. the admin in question is a "cis white male" and kamiyu is not)


I wonder if it's just more popular here, because I can name more than a few people who have been falsely accused, or who have had parents even try to accuse. I suppose I may be more sensitive to it, as well, since my husband is a teacher and has had to go through rigorous procedures to prevent students from getting any opportunity to falsely accuse him. One of the students got revenge on a teacher by sending him a picture of herself while he was talking to the principal. The teacher was unsuspecting and opened the text to find the picture, and I think he's out of jail now, but on probation, and on the sex offender list for life.

I did go in guns blazing... I think I miscalculated my feelings on the subject before posting, and only realized in retrospect that I should have been more calm about it. I get very worked up with people misunderstanding and being mean to my brother. I've grown up being bullied, and watching him get bullied, and the only reason I wasn't as bullied was because I was a shy, quiet girl. Because he's what he is, I guess everyone thought he was free game, family included.
Though with this encounter, I have decided that it's probably best if I avoid SJWs like the plague, since I want people to be treated equally and they do not... we will probably never see eye to eye, and until I can figure out how to talk to them and get them to even consider my side, I should probably stay away. I shouldn't have to mention having Shinnecock or Iroquois blood or being on the spectrum, or that I've been sexually assaulted, or any of that sort for them to suddenly view me as someone more worthy of their attention.


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18 May 2015, 12:24 am

beneficii wrote:
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I recently got banned from a page for daring to say that not all men rape,...


I'm wondering why you thought it was necessary to say this. Not knowing exactly the context of the discussion, it could be that they think that you are deliberately trying to derail an important discussion.

In discussions on rape and the negative experiences women go through, coming in and saying something like "not all men rape,..." comes off as patronizing (since they already know that fact), derailing (since it changes the focus of the conversation), and devaluing (since it implies the comfort of men is more important than the very real experiences of female sexual assault victims).

If I were you, when I come across a discussion like that, I would defer. Show some respect.


why does anyones discomfort have to be regarded higher than another's. why can't they all just be treated the same?
doesn't seem right to make one group feel comfortable by making another discomfortable. like trying to make whites feel safe after 9/11 by attacking any middle eastern person.

rape victims can deal with their experiences without making a whole half of the planet feel horrible to be born male.



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18 May 2015, 3:15 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
Though with this encounter, I have decided that it's probably best if I avoid SJWs like the plague, since I want people to be treated equally and they do not...

I'm not really sure this is what they were saying... In fact, they were keen to emphasise that rape is just as bad when it happens to a man. They just perceived you and your brother as attacking them, so they attacked back.

There are lots of perfectly friendly SJWs, you've just got to speak the right language with some of them. A few weeks ago I had a very friendly conversation with a SJW that started when I said "Emmeline Pankhurst was, on balance, a bad person". Because I dressed up what I was saying properly, I could attack possibly the biggest feminist icon of all without getting chewed up. I don't blame you if you don't want to go to all that effort to express challenging opinions around them, particularly as there are too many who avoid thinking at all costs (no different to almost any other ideology in that respect, of course).

Looking at it, I think the major issue here is that it wasn't a group or a page you were posting on, it was on someone's personal Facebook page. He's not in a position of responsibility or anything so he doesn't need to tell people to be nice to you.



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18 May 2015, 3:46 am

Not all social justice warriors ban people (hint).


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18 May 2015, 3:50 am

From what I've seen Social Justice Warriors pride themselves on being 'progressive', and 'Forwards thinking' yet when they run across anything or anybody that they disagree with they ware very quick to ostracise,and dismiss the ideas and people who espouse anything that they disagree with without even bothering to try to understand the rationale, so they are quite unbalanced. --This is nothing but the same old ignorance disguising itself as something 'new and progressive'.

They should take heed to the saying 'Those who choose to slay dragons should be wary that they don't become monsters in their own right.'


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18 May 2015, 4:29 am

They cay be equivocated as the left wing stratification of biblical literalists, but the only troubling disparity is that SJWs are overlooked for their promulgation of Orwellian ideological conformance doctrines that are aimed to subversively infiltrate the credulous (those propensified to group think) and undermine one's individuality, self reliance and ability to think independently in order to reject the herd mentality. They often propound themselves as "rationalists" or "progressive freethinkers" to justify their collectivized agendums. Identity politics whether it is left wing or right wing (and especially on the left) is inherently counterproductive and compels the human mind to conform to group think and fall for the bandwagon; nevertheless, I've also ascertained myself from encounters in retrospection that some neurodiversity activists within social media services like Tumblr self-identity themselves as as SJWs, oh and not to mention the so-called skeptic community too.


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18 May 2015, 4:50 am

sly279 wrote:
why does anyones discomfort have to be regarded higher than another's. why can't they all just be treated the same?
doesn't seem right to make one group feel comfortable by making another discomfortable. like trying to make whites feel safe after 9/11 by attacking any middle eastern person.

rape victims can deal with their experiences without making a whole half of the planet feel horrible to be born male.


I think it is important for women survivors of abuse to have their own space to talk about what they wish, without men barging in and getting all defensive. Women also have the right to create these spaces.

If reading those discussions makes you feel like crap simply for being born, then that is your problem, not the women in those discussions.


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