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Doberdoofus
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27 Nov 2022, 4:49 pm

I saw this word used the other day and I don't fully understand it. It is likened to 'blackface' and appears to be aimed at drag queens and comedians who dress as women e.g Dame Edna Everage

The only information I could find was about a lecturer who used the term and was allegedly fired because of it.

Can anyone explain if it's relevant or something I should just ignore as it appears transphobic.


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DeathFlowerKing
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27 Nov 2022, 5:08 pm

Know what I find ironic about "minorities"? I have met black people who told me they hated jews, feminists who told me they hated black people and transgender men, homosexual men who hinted at me that they hated women, etc. And im not exaggerating in the least bit about this.

How can the minorities of America ever hope to overthrow their rich white male heterosexual Christian oppressors if they themselves are often acting bigoted towards each other?

I know it doesnt answer your question but I felt it is worth thinking about.



Doberdoofus
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27 Nov 2022, 5:25 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:

How can the minorities of America ever hope to overthrow their rich white male heterosexual Christian oppressors if they themselves are often acting bigoted towards each other?



They'd have to work out how to eradicate bias which is a tall order as humans appear to be hardwired bigots.


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DeathFlowerKing
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27 Nov 2022, 5:27 pm

Doberdoofus wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:

How can the minorities of America ever hope to overthrow their rich white male heterosexual Christian oppressors if they themselves are often acting bigoted towards each other?



They'd have to work out how to eradicate bias which is a tall order as humans appear to be hardwired bigots.


Unfortunately i think you're right...



Doberdoofus
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27 Nov 2022, 5:36 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:

Unfortunately i think you're right...


Maybe bigot was too strong a word to use as a generalization, perhaps prejudiced is a more fitting word?


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DeathFlowerKing
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27 Nov 2022, 5:47 pm

Doberdoofus wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:

Unfortunately i think you're right...


Maybe bigot was too strong a word to use as a generalization, perhaps prejudiced is a more fitting word?


I dunno, frankly I think anyone hating anyone for something they can't help (skin color, gender, sexuality, disability, etc) is wrong no matter how we try to define it.

So im not afraid of seeing the words like bigot and prejudice used interchangeably. We all get the idea of what they mean. Right? :)



The_Walrus
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27 Nov 2022, 7:23 pm

As far as I can tell, everyone who has used the term has been transphobic and has been arguing broadly against drag performers, or trans women, or both.

I think it's reasonable to not be a fan of drag - it is an art form, and you don't have to like art. I also think it's reasonable to critique individual instances of men dressing up as women in a distasteful manner. People like Matt Lucas and David Walliams probably have relevant skeletons in their closet. That said, taken too far this would discourage anyone from playing with gender at all, and ultimately present a vision of gender which is deeply rigid and confining - I don't think many people actually want that.



Doberdoofus
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27 Nov 2022, 7:38 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
As far as I can tell, everyone who has used the term has been transphobic and has been arguing broadly against drag performers, or trans women, or both.


That's the initial gut feeling I had when hearing it. I shall treat it as a red flag unless proved otherwise.

The_Walrus wrote:
That said, taken too far this would discourage anyone from playing with gender at all, and ultimately present a vision of gender which is deeply rigid and confining - I don't think many people actually want that.


I'm hoping the word will not get traction and stop being used as veiled transphobia.


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IsabellaLinton
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27 Nov 2022, 9:43 pm

It sounds degrading and transphobic to me.

Is there a term "manface" or "personface" ?

I'm a bio woman and I'm not even sure I have a womanface.



Dox47
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27 Nov 2022, 10:12 pm

It's a linguistic pry bar of sorts, an attempt to force progressive types to grapple with the conflicting way they react to different exaggerated stereotypes. Personally, I don't think it's going to be particularly effective, but I can see what they were going for.


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blitzkrieg
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27 Nov 2022, 11:32 pm

I had never heard of the term until I arrived in this thread & now I wish I hadn't. :)



Dox47
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28 Nov 2022, 12:48 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
It sounds degrading and transphobic to me.

Is there a term "manface" or "personface" ?

I'm a bio woman and I'm not even sure I have a womanface.


Is there a comedic tradition of women dressing as men and performing exaggerated masculinity for comedic effect? When I see responses like yours, I'm never sure if the person making them truly doesn't get what is being said, or "doesn't get it" because getting it would require acknowledging an awkward fact.


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IsabellaLinton
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28 Nov 2022, 1:20 am

Dox47 wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
It sounds degrading and transphobic to me.

Is there a term "manface" or "personface" ?

I'm a bio woman and I'm not even sure I have a womanface.


Is there a comedic tradition of women dressing as men and performing exaggerated masculinity for comedic effect? When I see responses like yours, I'm never sure if the person making them truly doesn't get what is being said, or "doesn't get it" because getting it would require acknowledging an awkward fact.



I know what you're saying.
Of course I know what womanface is in a practical sense, and why it's offensive.

Women are criticised for "manface" all the time even though the word doesn't exist.
They get called bitchhes for failing to smile, or for acting like men.



Dox47
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28 Nov 2022, 1:46 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Women are criticised for "manface" all the time even though the word doesn't exist.
They get called bitchhes for failing to smile, or for acting like men.


Eh, I don't think they're quite the same, gender expectations are a thing for everyone (for the record, we've got a guy on dayshift at my work who is legendary for his RBF that makes people stay clear of him), where as the point being made with "womanface" is more about pointing out the contradiction in the treatment of drag vs minstrel shows, particularly with the hair trigger response to anything that might even appear tangential to blackface. Like I said, I think it's a little strained, but the question has some merit.


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28 Nov 2022, 2:05 am

This is the first time I ever heard of it. No idea what it is. Is it a TERF term or what?


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Dox47
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28 Nov 2022, 2:08 am

League_Girl wrote:
This is the first time I ever heard of it. No idea what it is. Is it a TERF term or what?


LOL, there are no such things as TERFs, it's just a meaningless slur.


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