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Nightwing82
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04 May 2024, 9:09 am

Discussions about civil rights and social issues always place emphasis on how non-white and LGBTQ+ communities are disproportionately affected. But autistic people are almost always excluded. It is not my intent to any way to try to take anything away from what any marginalized group, but my concern is that autistic people remain invisible and excluded from activist language. In short, I would like to emphasize that I want address what remains absent.

One example that illustrates this clearly is this LifeWTR "Life Unseen" PSA that used to run in movie theatres:



This PSA gives a comprehensive list of every group LifeWTR considers a marginalized minority. Disabled people are identified in the PSA as one of those groups, but notice how the language used specifies "the abilities of our bodies". While I doubt this was deliberate, it shows nonetheless that LifeWTR gives no consideration to the millions of people whose disabilities are mental and/or neurological. While I use this PSA to highlight this issue, it isn't a matter that is exclusive to LifeWTR. I have noticed this is a trend across social justice talking points in general.

There is a significant body of research that demonstrates that the marginalization, discrimination, violence, and abuse autistic people face on a daily basis is comparable to any other minority group. But despite that, we rarely see anyone talk about the marginalization of autistic people.



Mona Pereth
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08 May 2024, 7:08 am

Nightwing82 wrote:
There is a significant body of research that demonstrates that the marginalization, discrimination, violence, and abuse autistic people face on a daily basis is comparable to any other minority group. But despite that, we rarely see anyone talk about the marginalization of autistic people.

Yep.

The reason for this is that all those other marginalized groups have much bigger, older, better-organized, and generally better-established activist/advocacy movements than we as autistic people do. These movements have been fighting for their rights over many decades and hence are a well-established part of the Left.

Neurodiversity rights activism, on the other hand, is much newer and smaller -- and harder to achieve, in the first place, due to the nature of our common disability. Activist/advocacy groups for autistic people's rights do exist (e.g. ASAN), but they are not very big or very many.

In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.

Some thoughts on various kinds of groups that the autistic community needs: Longterm visions for the autistic community.


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carlos55
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08 May 2024, 2:01 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Nightwing82 wrote:
There is a significant body of research that demonstrates that the marginalization, discrimination, violence, and abuse autistic people face on a daily basis is comparable to any other minority group. But despite that, we rarely see anyone talk about the marginalization of autistic people.

Yep.

The reason for this is that all those other marginalized groups have much bigger, older, better-organized, and generally better-established activist/advocacy movements than we as autistic people do. These movements have been fighting for their rights over many decades and hence are a well-established part of the Left.

Neurodiversity rights activism, on the other hand, is much newer and smaller -- and harder to achieve, in the first place, due to the nature of our common disability. Activist/advocacy groups for autistic people's rights do exist (e.g. ASAN), but they are not very big or very many.

In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.

Some thoughts on various kinds of groups that the autistic community needs: Longterm visions for the autistic community.


Quote:
In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.


In order for that to happen everyone needs to be on the same page and to have things in common and a similar outlook like those who are blind.

Those who are blind are united by similar day to day struggles don't particularly like being blind and support ways to prevent and cure blindness.

This is not the case in autism, divided by the C & D words, the groups will always be fragmented like we see already with ASAN & NCSA.


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09 May 2024, 10:58 am

carlos55 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Nightwing82 wrote:
There is a significant body of research that demonstrates that the marginalization, discrimination, violence, and abuse autistic people face on a daily basis is comparable to any other minority group. But despite that, we rarely see anyone talk about the marginalization of autistic people.

Yep.

The reason for this is that all those other marginalized groups have much bigger, older, better-organized, and generally better-established activist/advocacy movements than we as autistic people do. These movements have been fighting for their rights over many decades and hence are a well-established part of the Left.

Neurodiversity rights activism, on the other hand, is much newer and smaller -- and harder to achieve, in the first place, due to the nature of our common disability. Activist/advocacy groups for autistic people's rights do exist (e.g. ASAN), but they are not very big or very many.

In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.

Some thoughts on various kinds of groups that the autistic community needs: Longterm visions for the autistic community.


Quote:
In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.


In order for that to happen everyone needs to be on the same page and to have things in common and a similar outlook like those who are blind.

Those who are blind are united by similar day to day struggles don't particularly like being blind and support ways to prevent and cure blindness.

This is not the case in autism, divided by the C & D words, the groups will always be fragmented like we see already with ASAN & NCSA.

Activists in many movements do not want to be cured. For example blacks do not want to be white.

It is rare activist movement that does not have internal disagreements about important issues. The difference between most* of those movements and the ND movement is the other movements usually agree on the fundamentals. Little disagreement over who is black, who has cancer. This is not true with who is neurodiverse, never mind who is autistic.

*Some feminists do not agree if those identifying as a women who were born with male genitals are women.


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carlos55
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09 May 2024, 3:15 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Nightwing82 wrote:
There is a significant body of research that demonstrates that the marginalization, discrimination, violence, and abuse autistic people face on a daily basis is comparable to any other minority group. But despite that, we rarely see anyone talk about the marginalization of autistic people.

Yep.

The reason for this is that all those other marginalized groups have much bigger, older, better-organized, and generally better-established activist/advocacy movements than we as autistic people do. These movements have been fighting for their rights over many decades and hence are a well-established part of the Left.

Neurodiversity rights activism, on the other hand, is much newer and smaller -- and harder to achieve, in the first place, due to the nature of our common disability. Activist/advocacy groups for autistic people's rights do exist (e.g. ASAN), but they are not very big or very many.

In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.

Some thoughts on various kinds of groups that the autistic community needs: Longterm visions for the autistic community.


Quote:
In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.


In order for that to happen everyone needs to be on the same page and to have things in common and a similar outlook like those who are blind.

Those who are blind are united by similar day to day struggles don't particularly like being blind and support ways to prevent and cure blindness.

This is not the case in autism, divided by the C & D words, the groups will always be fragmented like we see already with ASAN & NCSA.

Activists in many movements do not want to be cured. For example blacks do not want to be white.

It is rare activist movement that does not have internal disagreements about important issues. The difference between most* of those movements and the ND movement is the other movements usually agree on the fundamentals. Little disagreement over who is black, who has cancer. This is not true with who is neurodiverse, never mind who is autistic.

*Some feminists do not agree if those identifying as a women who were born with male genitals are women.


Your kind of mixing up disability with natural racial diversity which isn't really the same. Many autistic or disabled people in general are imprisoned by their disability and severely restricted in their life options like living independently and having control over their own life. Which is why severe disability can never really be an identity.

Many of these groups you mention ive read are openly hostile to each other, feminists and trans a good example, even LGB and trans are hostile.

There`s been all sorts of demonstrations between these groups, trans people breaking into feminist meetings shouting them down, turning very ugly.

Not a great example


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ASPartOfMe
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09 May 2024, 6:12 pm

carlos55 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Nightwing82 wrote:
There is a significant body of research that demonstrates that the marginalization, discrimination, violence, and abuse autistic people face on a daily basis is comparable to any other minority group. But despite that, we rarely see anyone talk about the marginalization of autistic people.

Yep.

The reason for this is that all those other marginalized groups have much bigger, older, better-organized, and generally better-established activist/advocacy movements than we as autistic people do. These movements have been fighting for their rights over many decades and hence are a well-established part of the Left.

Neurodiversity rights activism, on the other hand, is much newer and smaller -- and harder to achieve, in the first place, due to the nature of our common disability. Activist/advocacy groups for autistic people's rights do exist (e.g. ASAN), but they are not very big or very many.

In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.

Some thoughts on various kinds of groups that the autistic community needs: Longterm visions for the autistic community.


Quote:
In order for a marginalized group to have a large and well-organized advocacy movement, it helps a lot for the group to have an even larger (much larger) organized community (in the sense of subculture) that serves the group in many more ways besides just activism/advocacy. Hence we need to find ways to build the autistic adult community.


In order for that to happen everyone needs to be on the same page and to have things in common and a similar outlook like those who are blind.

Those who are blind are united by similar day to day struggles don't particularly like being blind and support ways to prevent and cure blindness.

This is not the case in autism, divided by the C & D words, the groups will always be fragmented like we see already with ASAN & NCSA.

Activists in many movements do not want to be cured. For example blacks do not want to be white.

It is rare activist movement that does not have internal disagreements about important issues. The difference between most* of those movements and the ND movement is the other movements usually agree on the fundamentals. Little disagreement over who is black, who has cancer. This is not true with who is neurodiverse, never mind who is autistic.

*Some feminists do not agree if those identifying as a women who were born with male genitals are women.


Your kind of mixing up disability with natural racial diversity which isn't really the same. Many autistic or disabled people in general are imprisoned by their disability and severely restricted in their life options like living independently and having control over their own life. Which is why severe disability can never really be an identity.

Many of these groups you mention ive read are openly hostile to each other, feminists and trans a good example, even LGB and trans are hostile.

There`s been all sorts of demonstrations between these groups, trans people breaking into feminist meetings shouting them down, turning very ugly.

Not a great example


There are plenty of feminists that do think people who are born with male genitals who identify as women are women and lobby for them. It is called Transfeminism. There are other feminists that think it is the most misogynistic idea possible. A similar fundamental disagreement to is autism a disability people have or an identity.

For the purposes of this thread it does not matter who is right. The question is why autistic people are excluded from activist language. Mona basically said the reason is the autistic rights movement can’t get their act together and listed several reasons. I added the reason of fundamental disagreement as to what autism is.


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“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


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18 May 2024, 7:52 pm

Nightwing82 wrote:
Discussions about civil rights and social issues always place emphasis on how non-white and LGBTQ+ communities are disproportionately affected. But autistic people are almost always excluded. It is not my intent to any way to try to take anything away from what any marginalized group, but my concern is that autistic people remain invisible and excluded from activist language. In short, I would like to emphasize that I want address what remains absent.

One example that illustrates this clearly is this LifeWTR "Life Unseen" PSA that used to run in movie theatres:



This PSA gives a comprehensive list of every group LifeWTR considers a marginalized minority. Disabled people are identified in the PSA as one of those groups, but notice how the language used specifies "the abilities of our bodies". While I doubt this was deliberate, it shows nonetheless that LifeWTR gives no consideration to the millions of people whose disabilities are mental and/or neurological. While I use this PSA to highlight this issue, it isn't a matter that is exclusive to LifeWTR. I have noticed this is a trend across social justice talking points in general.

There is a significant body of research that demonstrates that the marginalization, discrimination, violence, and abuse autistic people face on a daily basis is comparable to any other minority group. But despite that, we rarely see anyone talk about the marginalization of autistic people.

It would be somewhat more accurate to refer to it as LGTQIA+ as there's hardly any interest in doing things that might help bisexual folks out, because we're just an inconvenient reality for a lot of the activists groups.

I'm not surprised that autistic folks tend to be left out as you've got folks that are effectively so disabled that it's hard to properly advocate for themselves and those at the other end that don't have anything going on that resonates with people enough to be advocated for.



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23 May 2024, 10:17 am

I think ASAN’s buggest blunder in recent years was the decision to move from a local/regional chapter model to an affiliate or model, which I think happened during the Bascom era. Really negatively impacted local, small scale Autistic activism I feel.


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24 May 2024, 9:48 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
There are plenty of feminists that do think people who are born with male genitals who identify as women are women and lobby for them. It is called Transfeminism. There are other feminists that think it is the most misogynistic idea possible. A similar fundamental disagreement to is autism a disability people have or an identity.

For the purposes of this thread it does not matter who is right. The question is why autistic people are excluded from activist language. Mona basically said the reason is the autistic rights movement can’t get their act together and listed several reasons. I added the reason of fundamental disagreement as to what autism is.


I thought that was the point. Feminists can't agree about where transmen and transwomen fit in terms of being men or women.

And yeah, a lot of this has to do with us not having enough numbers in general to allow for a split between who thinks that it's something that should be curable and who thinks that we need to just be allowed to restructure how we interact with the world in a more natural fashion. A bigger group might be able to handle that, but when you're talking about a group that's probably only a couple percentage of the population to begin with, that's tough.
Zakatar wrote:
I think ASAN’s buggest blunder in recent years was the decision to move from a local/regional chapter model to an affiliate or model, which I think happened during the Bascom era. Really negatively impacted local, small scale Autistic activism I feel.


That's particularly unfortunate given how much disagreement there is over how to proceed and how many are suffering from a lack of social connections with non-family ND and/or NT folks.



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19 Jul 2024, 4:14 pm

One obstacle on the path to recognizing autistic people as a marginalized community is that the LGBT community has spent much of the past century trying to fight the characterization of them as having a disability. Homosexuality was for a long time thought to be a mental illness that could be cured (which was a step up from it being viewed as a mortal sin deserving of punishment, possibly capital punishment). Now, I believe that autism isn't a true disability either (in the sense that I don't think it's something that either can or should be cured, and my picture of an ideal world would include autistic people), but I know it'll be a while before that becomes widely accepted in society.

Also, while there is particular stigmatization of autistic people in many religious communities, it isn't anywhere near the level of what LGBT people face. There's no Biblical verse calling autism an abomination and saying they should be executed. That doesn't mean the struggles of autistic people aren't important or don't deserve activism, but it's still worth keeping in perspective how it differs from the struggles of other groups who are currently foregrounded in the struggle for civil rights for marginalized people.



carlos55
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20 Jul 2024, 6:28 pm

Lampipe wrote:
One obstacle on the path to recognizing autistic people as a marginalized community is that the LGBT community has spent much of the past century trying to fight the characterization of them as having a disability. Homosexuality was for a long time thought to be a mental illness that could be cured (which was a step up from it being viewed as a mortal sin deserving of punishment, possibly capital punishment). Now, I believe that autism isn't a true disability either (in the sense that I don't think it's something that either can or should be cured, and my picture of an ideal world would include autistic people), but I know it'll be a while before that becomes widely accepted in society.

Also, while there is particular stigmatization of autistic people in many religious communities, it isn't anywhere near the level of what LGBT people face. There's no Biblical verse calling autism an abomination and saying they should be executed. That doesn't mean the struggles of autistic people aren't important or don't deserve activism, but it's still worth keeping in perspective how it differs from the struggles of other groups who are currently foregrounded in the struggle for civil rights for marginalized people.


Many autistic people are severely disabled unable to function independently and would die without the support of NTs

Saying autism is not a disability goes against logic and facts.

Read the DSM every diagnostic criteria is a NEGATIVE attribute.

No positives there some autistic people have positive attributes but it’s in spite of their autism like most people in wheelchairs can’t do the things others do in the para olympics.

Also religion influenced the laws around homosexuality when religion lost its power in the west those laws started to go too.

So the two issues have nothing in common.

The problems most autistic people have are largely due to the condition itself and functioning levels that are not always fixed.

Stigma and negative social attitudes are generally over exaggerated.

Once it’s been confirmed by NTs the person is a harmless autistic, and behaviour is due to autism most NT are quite sympathetic, the only issue is they loose interest when they realise your you have no superpowers.

Indifference and ignorance of the condition being the main issues rather than persecution.


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Yesterday, 7:33 am

carlos55 wrote:
Lampipe wrote:
One obstacle on the path to recognizing autistic people as a marginalized community is that the LGBT community has spent much of the past century trying to fight the characterization of them as having a disability. Homosexuality was for a long time thought to be a mental illness that could be cured (which was a step up from it being viewed as a mortal sin deserving of punishment, possibly capital punishment). Now, I believe that autism isn't a true disability either (in the sense that I don't think it's something that either can or should be cured, and my picture of an ideal world would include autistic people), but I know it'll be a while before that becomes widely accepted in society.

Also, while there is particular stigmatization of autistic people in many religious communities, it isn't anywhere near the level of what LGBT people face. There's no Biblical verse calling autism an abomination and saying they should be executed. That doesn't mean the struggles of autistic people aren't important or don't deserve activism, but it's still worth keeping in perspective how it differs from the struggles of other groups who are currently foregrounded in the struggle for civil rights for marginalized people.


Many autistic people are severely disabled unable to function independently and would die without the support of NTs


Same goes for many NTs. Not everything about an autistic person can be blamed on autism. Autism is a diagnosis based on a spectrum of symptoms lumped together without really knowing much about the cause. It's pretty much like diagnose a bunch of people with "chest pain" and then from that make general assumtions about them.


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