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snake321
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16 May 2008, 2:50 pm

Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point?



TallyMan
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16 May 2008, 3:05 pm

I had exactly the same question when I was a child. I never got a satisfactory answer to the question from Christian school teachers or others. In fact it was risky to even ask such a questions when I was young without fear of retribution in one form or another. I grew up thinking God was some sort of supernatural bully. To be fair when I did look into Christianity as a young adult I saw past this childhood impression and realised it was more to do with poor teachers of Christianity than anything else. None the less I never got any satisfactory explanation to lots of questions and rejected Christianity as a result.



jfrmeister
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16 May 2008, 3:09 pm

You're exposing the lie that religion is based upon snake.

Worship creates vicarious power. The thing that you worship doesn't even need to be real.

If you remeber the scene in 1984 where Winston is discussing the fact that no one has ever seen big brother, and he questions, is big brother is even real. That's the whole point. A figure head doesn't need to be real because the source of the power is worship itsself.


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ouinon
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16 May 2008, 3:13 pm

snake321 wrote:
Imagine that I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point?

I think of it more like a writer and the characters in the book they are writing. :) Imagine a vaster version of "The Lord of the Rings".

:study:



Fred2670
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16 May 2008, 3:22 pm

You cant continue to create threads like these
and maintain any hope of getting into heaven..


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TallyMan
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16 May 2008, 3:31 pm

Fred2670 wrote:
You cant continue to create threads like these
and maintain any hope of getting into heaven..


Not a problem, I've played Monopoly - the Religion edition and I've got a "Get out of hell free" card.
Tricky bit is knowing how to carry it over to the other side :?



oscuria
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16 May 2008, 3:40 pm

snake321 wrote:
Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point?


To think you are worth more is slavery to the mind. He is not meant to humble Himself before you but you are meant to humble yourself to Him just as a child is meant to humble himself before his parents. A people to its ruler. A Servant to its Master. If you cannot humble yourself, then what point is there in believing? Your example of demanding worship from bugs is not the same, for you and the bug are created. Even if you owned a slave you cannot control the slave ultimately.

A monotheistic religion is just that; One. If the Lord was multiple then you can apply attributes. But He is One. What you are arguing is on the basis of your emotions and has nothing to do with Him.



CityAsylum
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16 May 2008, 3:43 pm

Fred2670 wrote:
You cant continue to create threads like these
and maintain any hope of getting into heaven..

Yeah, that's kind of the belief held by the repressed idiots who flew planes into the World Trade Towers - they did it because they were told they would get into heaven and be able to scr*w virgins if they killed all of us infidels in NYC.

Afterwards Osama bin Laden laughed at them for falling for it - religion is just a powertool for him, and many other jerks who tell others how to behave, in the name of God. Personally, I'd prefer to see people getting laid on Earth, and not running around killing innocent people so that they can get some action in the afterlife. Religions have the potential to derange dimwits, and then just look at what they do. :roll:

I respect people who wish to observe their own religions, but they need to keep their noses out of everybody else's business - that means respecting people's rights to post threads like this, even if you choose to believe that it will keep them out of heaven.



oscuria
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16 May 2008, 3:46 pm

CityAsylum wrote:
Fred2670 wrote:
You cant continue to create threads like these
and maintain any hope of getting into heaven..

Yeah, that's kind of the belief held by the repressed idiots who flew planes into the World Trade Towers - they did it because they were told they would get into heaven and be able to scr*w virgins if they killed all of us infidels in NYC.

Afterwards Osama bin Laden laughed at them for falling for it - religion is just a powertool for him, and many other jerks who tell others how to behave, in the name of God. Personally, I'd prefer to see people getting laid on Earth, and not running around killing innocent people so that they can get some action in the afterlife. Religions have the potential to derange dimwits, and then just look at what they do. :roll:

I respect people who wish to observe their own religions, but they need to keep their noses out of everybody else's business - that means respecting people's rights to post threads like this, even if you choose to believe that it will keep them out of heaven.


Freedom From Religion Foundation and the ACLU needs to keep themselves away from my business :x



Averick
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16 May 2008, 11:16 pm

Religion is child's play.



Sand
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16 May 2008, 11:27 pm

The concept of a hugely superior being demanding confused adherents to worship it in order to get ultimate rewards such as ending up with wings and harps and screwable innocent females is so obviously silly that anybody who accepts these basically comical concepts is not worth arguing with. A mind so gullible is basically deranged and not worth interacting with. Unfortunately some of these minds equip themselves with instruments of violence and destruction and become dangerous. Best to avoid them.



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16 May 2008, 11:29 pm

snake321 wrote:
Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point?


I've never heard members of any of these religions suggest that God was supposed to be humble.

In both Judaism and Islam various religious scholars compile lists about attributes they believe God to have, but I've never seen one that contained "humility".

With Christians you might be able to make a limited case depending on whether they believe Jesus was God, was the son of God, was like God, or some combination of these (these topics were especially a big deal for early Christians). If you go with "Jesus is God," and note that Jesus showed some traits along the lines of humility you might have a case, but not a very strong one.

A response that probably wouldn't be atypical would be that the humility was only an attribute of "Jesus the man" which needn't extend to Jesus as God (and we're back on another esoteric theological topic).

I can't say a whole lot specifically about other kinds of monotheists in general.

But what I think it comes down to is that humility is prescribed by God as a virtue for humans. Most religions (at least the monotheistic ones) don't follow a principle that what's good for humans is the same as what's good for God.



Escuerd
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16 May 2008, 11:39 pm

oscuria wrote:
A monotheistic religion is just that; One. If the Lord was multiple then you can apply attributes. But He is One. What you are arguing is on the basis of your emotions and has nothing to do with Him.


Islam's pretty clearly monotheistic, but all but one chapter of the Qur'an starts by applying attributes:

"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful."

Would you count this as a fundamental inconsistency in some way with monotheism?



oscuria
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17 May 2008, 12:01 am

Escuerd wrote:
oscuria wrote:
A monotheistic religion is just that; One. If the Lord was multiple then you can apply attributes. But He is One. What you are arguing is on the basis of your emotions and has nothing to do with Him.


Islam's pretty clearly monotheistic, but all but one chapter of the Qur'an starts by applying attributes:

"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful."

Would you count this as a fundamental inconsistency in some way with monotheism?


Fundamentally, Allah is Allah. Everything else are descriptions (even the title Allah for the ineffable). What I mean by attributes is the declaration of the Creator being this and this, or this and that only. When doing such, conflict arises because people will begin to wonder "ar-Rahman? If he was most Beneficient then why do I have nothing? ar-Raheem? If he was truly most Merciful, he wouldn't have taken my family."

These descriptions are really nothing more than honorifics. If Allah was a being like us, then He would have attributes because He could be easily distinguished, and easily discredited. Like the 99 names of Allah: as-samad, al-malik, al-kareem, as-salaam, etc. Allah is Allah. Nothing more and Nothing less.

I'm sure my explanation comes close to actually being attributes but I just don't see it that way. Now for your last question, I find that the attributes/descriptions applied are based on emotion. Going by Arabic titles, I consider the Lord al-Aziz, because it's what makes sense. But to go back to the beginning, He just is. Everything else is just our way of trying to make sense.



Speckles
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17 May 2008, 12:27 am

Hmm, to me the humble part isn't the problem. It's having a god who is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, yet still has a hell.

Thing is, if god know everything, then she knows what everyone is going to do. From the point an innocent baby is born, she can tell whether its actions will lead it to hell or not. Since she is all-powerful, she could change things so that person didn't go to hell.

Now, the immediate counter arguement to this is the free will shtick, but this still falls through IMO. God doesn't have to change your mind to alter the course of your life, she can simply alter your circumstances. If she has created a world in which you must believe certain things in order to get to heaven, but where the environment that people live in causes them to doubt those things, she is effectively being sadistic. If I were to put you in a room with twelve objects and then say I'm going to shoot you unless you bring the right one to me, then I really am being a dick. Yet that apparently is what god is doing - giving us a bunch of religions that claim that if you don't follow them you're going to hell.

One of these things must not be true. Personally, I prefer to believe that there is no hell, and that all actions lead to the same ending. Whether that is oblivion, reincarnation, or heaven, I don't know.



oscuria
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17 May 2008, 12:46 am

Speckles wrote:
Hmm, to me the humble part isn't the problem. It's having a god who is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, yet still has a hell.

Thing is, if god know everything, then she knows what everyone is going to do. From the point an innocent baby is born, she can tell whether its actions will lead it to hell or not. Since she is all-powerful, she could change things so that person didn't go to hell.

Now, the immediate counter arguement to this is the free will shtick, but this still falls through IMO. God doesn't have to change your mind to alter the course of your life, she can simply alter your circumstances. If she has created a world in which you must believe certain things in order to get to heaven, but where the environment that people live in causes them to doubt those things, she is effectively being sadistic. If I were to put you in a room with twelve objects and then say I'm going to shoot you unless you bring the right one to me, then I really am being a dick. Yet that apparently is what god is doing - giving us a bunch of religions that claim that if you don't follow them you're going to hell.

One of these things must not be true. Personally, I prefer to believe that there is no hell, and that all actions lead to the same ending. Whether that is oblivion, reincarnation, or heaven, I don't know.


Are you pagan by any chance?

Free-will is not compatible with an Omnipotent/Omniscient Creator. I have yet to find an explanation that convinces me of such. Also, like I commented above, the "Benevolent Creator" is given because that is what people feel towards Him (or the emotions they feel during Spiritual moments).