High-functioning, low-functioning. What's more common?

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DJRnold
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25 Nov 2008, 10:15 pm

I had this discussion with my dad a few weeks ago.

Wikipedia wrote:
Most recent reviews estimate a prevalence of one to two cases per 1,000 people for autism, and about six per 1,000 for ASD, with ASD averaging a 4.3:1 male-to-female ratio.

That would suggest that there are more people with AS and PDD-NOS than there are with Kanner's Autism. But that particular piece of information doesn't cite a source. :? Does anybody know any reliable sources that answer this question?



Mindtear
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25 Nov 2008, 10:18 pm

Theres nothing realy reliable on this subject. The Swedish studies are as accurate as your going to get.



DJRnold
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25 Nov 2008, 10:20 pm

Could you please post a link (or tell me what to type in on Google)?



Mindtear
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25 Nov 2008, 10:25 pm

Dont have any available, they would come up with some digging on these subjects. Maybe some links buried within this site.

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Index



DJRnold
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25 Nov 2008, 10:28 pm

Okay. Thanks. :D



2ukenkerl
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25 Nov 2008, 10:51 pm

The higher functioning people are harder to spot, and less likely to be diagnosed, so I would expect more LFAs to be diagnosed.



Ishmael
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26 Nov 2008, 1:15 am

Of course high functioning are the more common; but don't expect any reliable statistics.
Did you know most "autistics" would actually not test as AS/Kanners? They seem mildly eccentric NT's. But, thanks to the stupid deficiency-based tests, they are very difficult to identify.


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MissConstrue
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26 Nov 2008, 1:19 am

2ukenkerl wrote:
The higher functioning people are harder to spot, and less likely to be diagnosed, so I would expect more LFAs to be diagnosed.


QFT, I was diagnosed late in life and no one ever brought up ASD. I'm suppose to be High Functioning.


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Danielismyname
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26 Nov 2008, 1:31 am

As of now,

Asperger's, high-functioning autism (Autistic Disorder without Mental Retardation, albeit, some people see this as "low-functioning" in regards to the highest functioning forms of autism), and PDD-NOS outnumber LFA.

Lorna Wing has it as (this is from all population studies):

1/4 have HFA/LFA
1/4 have AS
1/2 have PDD-NOS

So, that's pretty much 3/4 with "HFA" (verbal autism with a normal IQ).



TPE2
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26 Nov 2008, 5:29 am

Ishmael wrote:
Of course high functioning are the more common; but don't expect any reliable statistics.
Did you know most "autistics" would actually not test as AS/Kanners? They seem mildly eccentric NT's.


But, what is the real difference between a mildly eccentric NT's and a very high function autistic?

For example, who you distinguish between an extremely introvert neurotypical with a strong interest in some strange issues and an Aspie?

After all, with the exception of "marked impairmant in non-verbal comunication", all other "official symptoms" of AS are little more than personality traits.



Ishmael
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26 Nov 2008, 5:35 am

TPE2 wrote:
Ishmael wrote:
Of course high functioning are the more common; but don't expect any reliable statistics.
Did you know most "autistics" would actually not test as AS/Kanners? They seem mildly eccentric NT's.


But, what is the real difference between a mildly eccentric NT's and a very high function autistic?

For example, who you distinguish between an extremely introvert neurotypical with a strong interest in some strange issues and an Aspie?

After all, with the exception of "marked impairmant in non-verbal comunication", all other "official symptoms" of AS are little more than personality traits.


Unfortunately, until genetic testing is perfected - and kept well out of the hands of groups such as autism speaks - it's impossible to distinguish. A [conservative] estimate holds that perhaps 70% of autistics would not test as such under current flawed behavioural analysis tests.


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Danielismyname
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26 Nov 2008, 6:29 am

TPE2 wrote:
But, what is the real difference between a mildly eccentric NT's and a very high function autistic?


Lorna Wing touched on that:

Quote:
Normal variant of personality

All the features that characterise Asperger syndrome can be found in varying degrees in the normal population. People differ in their levels of skill in social interaction and in their ability to read nonverbal social cues. There is an equally wide distribution in motor skills. Many who are capable and independent as adults have special interests that they pursue with marked enthusiasm. Collecting objects such as stamps, old glass bottles, or railway engine numbers are socially accepted hobbies. Asperger (1979) pointed out that the capacity to withdraw into an inner world of one's own special interests is available in a greater or lesser measure to all human beings. He emphasised that this ability has to be present to marked extent in those who are creative artists or scientists. The difference between someone with Asperger syndrome and the normal person who has a complex inner world is that the latter does take part appropriately in two-way social interaction at times, while the former does not. Also, the normal person, however elaborate his inner world, is influenced by his social experiences, whereas the person with Asperger syndrome seems cut off from the effects of outside contacts.

A number of normal adults have outstandingly good rote memories and even retain eidetic imagery into adult life. Pedantic speech and a tendency to take things literally can also be found in normal people.

It is possible that some people could be classified as suffering from Asperger syndrome because they are at the extreme end of the normal continuum on all these features. In others, one particular aspect may be so marked that it affects the whole of their functioning. The man described by Luria (1965), whose visual memories of objects and events were so vivid and so permanent that they interfered with his comprehension of their significance, seemed to have behaved not unlike someone with Asperger syndrome. Unfortunately, Luria did not give enough details to allow a diagnosis to be made.

Even though Asperger syndrome does appear to merge into the normal continuum, there are many cases in whom the problems are so marked that the suggestion of a distinct pathology seems a more plausible explanation than a variant of normality.



TPE2
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26 Nov 2008, 7:11 am

Danielismyname wrote:

Lorna Wing touched on that:

Quote:
Normal variant of personality

(...) The difference between someone with Asperger syndrome and the normal person who has a complex inner world is that the latter does take part appropriately in two-way social interaction at times, while the former does not. Also, the normal person, however elaborate his inner world, is influenced by his social experiences, whereas the person with Asperger syndrome seems cut off from the effects of outside contacts.

(...)

Even though Asperger syndrome does appear to merge into the normal continuum, there are many cases in whom the problems are so marked that the suggestion of a distinct pathology seems a more plausible explanation than a variant of normality.


Hum, reading these forum (specially the threads where people talk about their lifes), many people with AS seems capable of doing part in two-way social interaction at times, and almost all seems to be influenced by his social experiences.

And I think the question is exactly about the individuals where the problems are not so marked (and, because that, can be confused with NTs).



Danielismyname
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26 Nov 2008, 7:45 am

That's from the original paper on Asperger's and separating it from a "normal" personality variant with people who can function in society; they still have a marked impairment in social interaction as it's written by her in the paper, no matter how "high-functioning" they are (it's talking about people who don't have a severe manifestation of the disorder here).

A lack of social reciprocation as it's written in diagnostic texts means a lack of appropriate two-way social interaction [compared to "NT" peers]. With Asperger's, this means that it's usually one-sided and pedantic in appearance without actually appearing to be a part of the conversation, rather talking at people than with them (this continues into adulthood; the main difference being that the individual knows and understands what they're talking about when they do lecture others).

Of note, she also says that "NTs" can appear as someone with Asperger's when they are at the extreme of each point, and if they're negatively affected. It really doesn't matter if they really have Asperger's or not when the distinct pathology is found (it'll probably go under PDD-NOS or something).



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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26 Nov 2008, 10:15 am

TPE2 wrote:
For example, who you distinguish between an extremely introvert neurotypical with a strong interest in some strange issues and an Aspie?


It is possible to differentiate if childhood is a consideration. The best way for an eccentric NT to get diagnosed is by going to an expert in ASDs and explaining problems in childhood. This is how other diagnosis can be ruled out, especially personality disorders. People often confuse the two. The easiest way to tell if it's a personality disorder is ask what whomever was like as a child.
If someone was outgoing, happy, and had many friends in childhood without any stimming and is now an introverted, friendless, eccentric NT with or without special interests, maybe he has a personality disorder instead?
It's worth considering.