The hard work equals success myth

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Here is an example. He is saying that working hard beats smarts every time and you can make up for lack of talent that way:
http://ed.ted.com/lessons/richard-st-jo ... ard#review

Yet he provides no empirical data to back that up, purely anecdotal interviews. You can get the gist of what he saying, but without a way of measuring exactly how hard people work in relations to their success with axis for academic performance/IQ it is fair to say this is not a credible theory at all. Given that many people are likely working just as hard as these very successful people, if there is an agreed upon way of measuring work.

What he did quite cleverly is figure out that if he manage to do 500 interviews with successful people (tm), he could call himself a success expert and market himself as such. So in reality he is good at marketing/selling himself and public speaking. However that still doesn't do anything to back up his theory, it is just a way he can get on the lecture circuit. He is not making people more successful by telling them to work hard anymore than anyone else.

Obviously people who are successful are good at being successful, especially if they are capable of repeating that success. So they are clearly good at something and this is all relative. They may well work hard in term of hours, but that doesn't mean they are using the same energy or putting in the same raw effort.

If a person lacks mental capacity it is quite probable the certain types of hard work would harder to achieve that someone who doesn't, and if the person is competing with them directly, chances are they won't be able to. Unless they find some edge that will tip the scales.

Everyone has to find their edge before hard work is likely to pay off. If you have great general ability then you have options, if you have lower mental and physical capacity then it is probable that your options will be greatly diminished.

relevant random youtube video that explains it clearly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k7jeQQdqPA

But it does nothing to say people believe the myth the OP talks about, or disprove the stuff about successful people.

Success doesn't have to be defined by being on the top. If you wanted to be the next Lionel Messi, that may be a goal that is beyond every person on the planet. But if you just wanted to make a living from the game and devoted your mind, body and soul to it from a young age and were an able bodied male, I say that is attainable.

I agree that hard work does not guarantee success. A look around the music industry will show this very clearly. For every Miley Cyrus, there are a hundred thousand talented musicians, that hardly can get a gig performing Sunday at church. The ultimate proof of this scam would be Milli Vanilli, a virtual duo of pretty people cobbled together from a pair lip-syncers. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli . It would have been easier to put out the real vocalists who performed the biggest hits they had, but they weren't "stylish."

Style over substance, every time.

well that's another story, it's really just a straightforward explanation of part of how it works

in my post before that one, though, i did explain how i see the myth as widespread. it's not so much a logical fallacy as it is an underlying moral foundation that is generally not subject to logical reasoning. it's a self-replicating fear and defensiveness against real-world evidence that could debunk your understanding of what defines your worth as a person. it's on a more instinctive level of self-preservation than any rational logic would be


the catch is: there's no concrete reason why you would need to even try or aspire to be the next lionel messi. and no reason why he would automatically be a role model in any way either. these subtleties are much harder to grasp than the (rather obvious) fact that only few people can be a lionel messi at any given point in time, or even the (slightly less obvious) fact that not everyone is born with the potential to ever be a lionel messi

Drake, do you believe that luck doesn't factor in as well? Some lazy people can be incredibly lucky and have everything handed to them on a silver platter, or know the 'right' people and not have to work hard at all to get what they want.

Unless you want people to admire you, is there really any reason to keep going? Would it really make anyone who doesn't really care about that feel pressured to keep going and make them keep going?

Drake, do you believe that luck doesn't factor in as well? Some lazy people can be incredibly lucky and have everything handed to them on a silver platter, or know the 'right' people and not have to work hard at all to get what they want.

But hard work I see as a reliable modifier to increasing your chances of success and an attribute I value highly in people. And it is something you can control.

Of course. Easiest example would be a lottery winner or someone born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouth. But the power of knowing the right people is also something pretty clear for all the World to see.

But hard work I see as a reliable modifier to increasing your chances of success and an attribute I value highly in people. And it is something you can control.

I remember a comment made by one engineer about another engineer that everything he does--even his hobby projects--turn into money!

This example doesn't work. First of all, he clearly states at the start of the video this is the second of eight traits in successful people, not the be all and end all. And second of all, he's saying just what I said, that if talent doesn't work hard then hard work beats talent.

now that's something i simply disagree with. let's say you're a high-school teacher. let's say you're really good at it, and extremely passionate and dedicated. but let's say teachers are taken for granted where you live, except for those who teach at the top-10% schools

okay, so, if you don't know the right people and don't have the right kind of (professionally-irrelevant) charm to convince those employers to hire you, do you have any chance of being hired by one of those top-10% schools? the answer is simple: no. they have plenty of qualified or even overqualified candidates for the job. then let's say you work hard for 10 or 20 years teaching at a bottom-90% school, underpaid all the way, barely managing to make ends meet, but still excelling at your job. and then you apply for a top-10% job. will your chances have increased by then? the answer is simple: probably not. they may have even decreased instead, because you've been isolated from the "right" professional ecosystem for too long

so it really takes the right conditions and the right scenarios for hard work to be a significant predictor of good outcomes. in the example above, if the reason why you're still excelling at your job is because you enjoy it even though you're underpaid, then, good for you, you're already successful. but if you feel like killing yourself every day when you get home, and you yearn for the days when you'll be properly paid and valued, then you're seriously doing it all wrong

Which exactly what I'm disputing. Where is you proof that that if you lack talent you can beat it with hard work?

As as general rule this isn't credible. You need something like talent or some other advantage which you can work hard with.

Or maybe that 20 years of hard work will by then have allowed you to have become head teacher at the school you're currently at and even mould that school into a top 10% school.

I am puzzled because I don't know what point you're trying to make. I have never disagreed with the idea hard work is not a magic solution to everything. And am in fact saying I don't think people think it is. But it is the one thing you have the most control over and it can impress the kind of people you need to impress. These things about successful people emphasise hard work and emphasise surrounding yourself with the right people. They don't have to and shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Both are better than one.