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RedDeathFlower13
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27 Dec 2023, 8:42 am

naturalplastic wrote:

What Max said


What Max said was completely idiotic because slavers and slavery is brutal in any society that has them.


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27 Dec 2023, 12:29 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:

What Max said


What Max said was completely idiotic because slavers and slavery is brutal in any society that has them.

Historically, most societies have been more or less brutal.


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27 Dec 2023, 3:19 pm

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
So in other words its only ok for your side to choose which books to ban but not the other guys. That's called hypocrisy. :lol:


I don't really follow a "side" and I have no objections to "Kill a Mockingbird" being mandatory reading. What I would like is protection for teachers to do their job and explain to students why the language of the book reflects the time it was published in the 1960s when white supremacy ruled supreme.

My only objection is that every hour of classroom time that gets spent teaching To Kill a Mockingbird is time that could be spent teaching books written by black authors.



MaxE
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27 Dec 2023, 5:39 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
So in other words its only ok for your side to choose which books to ban but not the other guys. That's called hypocrisy. :lol:


I don't really follow a "side" and I have no objections to "Kill a Mockingbird" being mandatory reading. What I would like is protection for teachers to do their job and explain to students why the language of the book reflects the time it was published in the 1960s when white supremacy ruled supreme.

My only objection is that every hour of classroom time that gets spent teaching To Kill a Mockingbird is time that could be spent teaching books written by black authors.

Yes but could try to teach both.


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cyberdad
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27 Dec 2023, 8:23 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
@Cyber. The Greeks myths of Amazon warriors probably date back at least to five hundred BC. But the Fon tribe didnt start their practice of using women warriors until the 1600s AD . So I doubt that that the Fon were the source of the Greek myth.


The prevailing source of the Greek Amazons on the periphery of the known world. After years of study the only viable source for this myth are scythian horsemen from the steppes which included women warriors.

However another source comes from north Africa. The Greeks were trading with the Phoenicians who in 500BC had a flourishing port in Carthage. The Phoenicians likely had trade routes to tribes further south in the region where the ancestors of the Fon lived.

If you read how the Dahomy "woman king" chooses her warriors and has a standing female army it is identical to the Amazon story. In addition the women were topless which doesn't make sense in the cold steppes of Russia but makes more sense in the tropical jungle.

I also don't give much credence to relying on European sources on west african tribes prior to 1600. If there is a tradition among the Fon there is nothing to suggest it doesn't predate the European medieval era prior to the renaissance when most of Europe lived on superstitious stories about what existed outside of Europe.



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27 Dec 2023, 8:30 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
My only objection is that every hour of classroom time that gets spent teaching To Kill a Mockingbird is time that could be spent teaching books written by black authors.


Agreed, although how much are black authors valued to white Americans? for example white kids have no real idea how popular music, art and even architecture/design evolved in America.The concept of what is art (whether writing, music or design) is seen through a white lens. That is what I was taught and I suspect what American kids are taught in school.

Secondly many African American authors would be banned from school curriculum under new draconian state laws. The very point I am making in the title of this thread.



cyberdad
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27 Dec 2023, 8:35 pm

MaxE wrote:
T
I strongly suspect that West Africa in the era during which The Woman King was set didn't have chattel slavery like in the American colonies. Those slavers probably had no idea what would happen to the people they sold. I won't try to excuse them, but what they did was probably routine for monarchs at that time.


There is some element of truth here. Those sold into slavery in Africa always had the opportunity for freedom down the track. The slavers probably assumed the same for those they sold to the Europeans. Conversely those sold by the Ashanti in east Africa were destined for the middle east and many of those would suffer worse fates.



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27 Dec 2023, 8:37 pm

cyberdad wrote:
In addition the women were topless which doesn't make sense in the cold steppes of Russia but makes more sense in the tropical jungle.


Or it was an embellishment.

'Unmarried women join the men in battle' gradually became increasingly embellished by their terrified, even more patriarchal, settled neighbours.


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27 Dec 2023, 8:44 pm

MaxE wrote:
Cleopatra was accomplished politician and as part of her career had sex with multiple men to achieve her own ends. She probably wasn't glamorous in the way she has been portrayed on film. I think it's a damn shame nobody ever tried to portray her life and career on film in a way that didn't necessarily try to make a "sex symbol" of whoever is cast in the leading role.


Both Netflix and Jada Pinkett Smith knew what they were doing. Pushing a narrative that had no historical/archaeological evidence as a documentary. For Netflix the controversy provided free publicity = $$. In African American circles Cleo was long ago adopted as the "queen of Africa" so whatever the accuracy of the depiction she represents a symbol of the greatness of a mythical "great" black past.

The afro-centrist movement at its most extreme claims every civilisation has its roots in sub-Saharan Africa. On the flipside people are too lazy to go the library and pick up a book on Cleopatra. Any school that relies on Netflix to teach their kids should be shutdown.



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27 Dec 2023, 8:55 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Or it was an embellishment.

'Unmarried women join the men in battle' gradually became increasingly embellished by their terrified, even more patriarchal, settled neighbours.


I think a lot ancient myth is based on an original truth. But stories past down from region to tegion in ancient times can be embellished but has a kernel of truth. For example Alexander's scribe described giant serpents in India with eyes the size of plates or saucers.Alexander and his Greek macedonian and Persian mercenaries probably experienced culture shock when they entered the borders of what we today call India. Northern India at the time of Alexander (350BC) was still culturally a fusion of indigenous Indian (Dravidian) and steppe Indo-European horseman. Dravidian temples typically have giant serpents (called Nagas) and Naga worship is still prevalent in the south of India. Its these naga imagery that fed the imaginations of Alexander's personal scribes.



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27 Dec 2023, 9:47 pm

I take back everything I said. White kids in America should be taught to hate their own race and feel deeply ashamed for even existing in this world.


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naturalplastic
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27 Dec 2023, 10:07 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
So in other words its only ok for your side to choose which books to ban but not the other guys. That's called hypocrisy. :lol:


I don't really follow a "side" and I have no objections to "Kill a Mockingbird" being mandatory reading. What I would like is protection for teachers to do their job and explain to students why the language of the book reflects the time it was published in the 1960s when white supremacy ruled supreme.

My only objection is that every hour of classroom time that gets spent teaching To Kill a Mockingbird is time that could be spent teaching books written by black authors.


What a dumb inane point. The same could be said of teaching Hemingway, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, and Homer.

Let me do your talking for you.

What you MEAN to say is that "the problem with TKAMB is that it is an example of a White savior story".

A White guy is the hero in the racial struggle. Not that it "takes away time from teaching Black authors".

My response to that is yes it is that. But that doesnt mean it isnt a timeless literary classic. And it doesnt mean that there isnt place for the occasional White savior story in the sweep of American history and race relations etc. As long Blacks are show as having their own saviors as well.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 27 Dec 2023, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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27 Dec 2023, 10:17 pm

cyberdad wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
My only objection is that every hour of classroom time that gets spent teaching To Kill a Mockingbird is time that could be spent teaching books written by black authors.


Agreed, although how much are black authors valued to white Americans? for example white kids have no real idea how popular music, art and even architecture/design evolved in America.The concept of what is art (whether writing, music or design) is seen through a white lens. That is what I was taught and I suspect what American kids are taught in school.

Secondly many African American authors would be banned from school curriculum under new draconian state laws. The very point I am making in the title of this thread.


You have no knowledge of America nor its education system. So please stop sounding off about it.

We read tons of Black authors when I was in high school back in late Sixties and early Seventies. Richard Wright's novel "Native Son". I did a book report on the autobiography of Claude Brown "Manchild in the Promised Land". Some classmates had to read "the learnin' Tree". The Autobiography of Malcolm X was a common thing to do reports on.



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27 Dec 2023, 10:26 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Or it was an embellishment.

'Unmarried women join the men in battle' gradually became increasingly embellished by their terrified, even more patriarchal, settled neighbours.


I think a lot ancient myth is based on an original truth. But stories past down from region to tegion in ancient times can be embellished but has a kernel of truth. For example Alexander's scribe described giant serpents in India with eyes the size of plates or saucers.Alexander and his Greek macedonian and Persian mercenaries probably experienced culture shock when they entered the borders of what we today call India. Northern India at the time of Alexander (350BC) was still culturally a fusion of indigenous Indian (Dravidian) and steppe Indo-European horseman. Dravidian temples typically have giant serpents (called Nagas) and Naga worship is still prevalent in the south of India. Its these naga imagery that fed the imaginations of Alexander's personal scribes.


I agree that there's often something to a lot of myths, even if the as you call it 'original truth' is someone else's myth.


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27 Dec 2023, 10:29 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I take back everything I said. White kids in America should be taught to hate their own race and feel deeply ashamed for even existing in this world.


What would that help?

I'd like to think you can strike a balance between teaching about historic evils without blaming some segment of modern society for it, instead of hating one's self for something other people did, why can't it serve as an inspiration to do better, without that being treated as evidence of guilt?


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning. — Warren Buffett


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27 Dec 2023, 10:36 pm

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Know what I find amusing about all this? The irony in the fact that the left is trying to ban books like "To Kill A Mockingbird". :jester:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educatio ... ashington/


Why not actually look at the reasons this book has created controversy as a school reading (this was also mandatory reading for Australian English students).

The objections to the book have shifted over time. In 1966, a Virginia school board banned the book for its “immoral” depiction of rape. Forty years later, a California school district forbade teaching “Mockingbird” after parents alleged it was racist for its use of the n-word and portrayal of Black people.

The book was a product of its time, There is some irony that conservatives want this book in the school curriculum but if a teacher tried to explain why in the 1960s it was acceptable to publish a book with the n-word the teacher would likely be fired under draconian republican laws for inciting racial division.


And TKAM also brings to light the obsession that many southern whites had at the time with black men trying to have their way with white women. Sadly, it was the justification many southern whites had for everything from lynchings to the Tulsa Massacre of 1921.


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