Now that Asperger's is out of the DSM...

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Callista
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11 Feb 2010, 5:59 pm

MONKEY wrote:
Callista wrote:
Actually, if you have developmental delay, you can't be labeled Asperger's under current criteria at all.


Huh? This I don't get since I had developmental delays and I'm labeled Aspergers. I had speech delays and couldn't speak properly until the age of 5/6, before then it was really simplified stuff of just repeating things.
Your Asperger label isn't technically correct, then. Don't worry about it, though, because most Aspies would be diagnosed with regular autism under current criteria, if the criteria were used strictly. That's part of the reason they're being changed--there's just so much overlap between Asperger's and regular autism that the difference between them is practically nil. Asperger's, for all practical purposes, is a sub-set of classic autism, not a separate thing at all; and in adulthood, it's indistinguishable from HFA.


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11 Feb 2010, 6:13 pm

Callista wrote:
MONKEY wrote:
Callista wrote:
Actually, if you have developmental delay, you can't be labeled Asperger's under current criteria at all.


Huh? This I don't get since I had developmental delays and I'm labeled Aspergers. I had speech delays and couldn't speak properly until the age of 5/6, before then it was really simplified stuff of just repeating things.
Your Asperger label isn't technically correct, then. Don't worry about it, though, because most Aspies would be diagnosed with regular autism under current criteria, if the criteria were used strictly. That's part of the reason they're being changed--there's just so much overlap between Asperger's and regular autism that the difference between them is practically nil. Asperger's, for all practical purposes, is a sub-set of classic autism, not a separate thing at all; and in adulthood, it's indistinguishable from HFA.


This is true I have noticed this. I don't mean to generalise but people with HFA usually develop slower and seem more severe as small kids but change dramatically as they grow up where-as the AS kids pretty much stay consistent in their severity until adulthood.
I'll use a personal anecdote, I have a good friend with HFA and when he was a little kid he had severe traits and it took him years to speak and he had violent meltdowns and would hit his head. When I was growing up I stayed relativly mild throughout but my traits did vary because some were moderate. Now we're at a similar age group both of us are at a similar level and you wouldn't think any of us were on the spectrum at the first few meetings, we may be shy but that's it. Both of us could be HFA or both of us could be AS because we are so alike now.


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pandd
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11 Feb 2010, 7:47 pm

BrooxBroox wrote:
Pervasive literally means "all parts". So a pervasive developmental disorder is technically a disorder in which a person shows *significant* impairment throughout ALL parts of their overall development. And many Asperger's people do. It's just that the Asperger's end of the spectrum is expanding SO MUCH that people without pervasive developmental delay and just odd personality traits are being labeled "autistic".... it's getting away from the whole picture when it goes to that extreme.

Actually developmental refers to the onset/discovery. There is no known injury or illness onset (even Retts is the result of something that was present all along), unlike conditions such as Downs Syndrome, PDDs are not congenital (definately present and generally detectable at birth). They become observable during the course of development and without any apparent injury or illness trigger. They occur "developmentally".
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Now it's seeming like it's branching out to "mild form of Asperger's" where it's basically just the person's personality and not a developmental disorder at all. Especially not a pervasive (which means in ALL areas) developmental disorder. And of course, Asperger's can be mild or severe or in between, but for people who just have "Aspie" personalities and "mild" Asperger's, where they're are not truly developmentally delayed, but rather quirky or odd, and meet the new criteria, saying those people have the same disorder as even moderately autistic people is quite far-fetched.

You cannot meet the new criteria if you merely have a personality variant and not a clinically significant disorder.



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11 Feb 2010, 7:54 pm

pandd wrote:
BrooxBroox wrote:
Pervasive literally means "all parts". So a pervasive developmental disorder is technically a disorder in which a person shows *significant* impairment throughout ALL parts of their overall development. And many Asperger's people do. It's just that the Asperger's end of the spectrum is expanding SO MUCH that people without pervasive developmental delay and just odd personality traits are being labeled "autistic".... it's getting away from the whole picture when it goes to that extreme.

Actually developmental refers to the onset/discovery. There is no known injury or illness onset (even Retts is the result of something that was present all along), unlike conditions such as Downs Syndrome, PDDs are not congenital (definately present and generally detectable at birth). They become observable during the course of development and without any apparent injury or illness trigger. They occur "developmentally".

Ehhh....

See.... that's another area of debate. A developmental disorder used to be a problem with some area(s) of one's development. And now, it's something that occurs "developmentally"? If that's then case DID and Schizophrenia are also "developmental disorders" if they occur at some point in development.

I don't agree on that one, and won't.



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11 Feb 2010, 7:57 pm

this is the official definition of a developmental disorder:
Definition

A developmental delay is any significant lag in a child's physical, cognitive, behavioral, emotional, or social development, in comparison with norms.


Totally different that something showing up as a person develops.



gramirez
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11 Feb 2010, 7:59 pm

I have no problem calling myself autistic. It's easier to tell people that I'm autistic, instead of saying I have AS, and then having to explain what AS is...


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pandd
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11 Feb 2010, 8:09 pm

BrooxBroox wrote:
this is the official definition of a developmental disorder:
Definition

A developmental delay is any significant lag in a child's physical, cognitive, behavioral, emotional, or social development, in comparison with norms.


Totally different that something showing up as a person develops.

No, that is a definition of developmental delay.

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Ehhh....

See.... that's another area of debate. A developmental disorder used to be a problem with some area(s) of one's development. And now, it's something that occurs "developmentally"? If that's then case DID and Schizophrenia are also "developmental disorders" if they occur at some point in development.

I don't agree on that one, and won't.

You appear to be conflating disorder and delay.

DID and schizophrenia are illnesses, not developmental conditions. Developmental disorders are not illnesses, one can have AS and be entirely healthy while symptomatic. By definition, a symptomatic schizophrenic is ill.



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11 Feb 2010, 8:11 pm

We'll have to agree to disagree. Asperger's is becoming more of a "personality" thing nowadays than a true developmental disorder.

Look at this article. Most here won't want to admit it, but it's true:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... html?cat=4



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11 Feb 2010, 8:33 pm

The article you point to is a very poorly researched opinion piece by someone who appears to have an axe to grind, but nothing of substance to rub up against.

Developmental delay and developmental disorder are two distinct things, hence the distinct words. I would have thought someone training in the area of psychology would know this.

The suggestion that sub-clinical personalities be measured is not just for PDDs but also for other areas of the DSM and is intended to aid in identifying traits that might impact on clinical process, while at the same time, making a clearer boundary between traits and behaviors occuring in the course of a non-ill and non-disordered individual, and pathology/symptoms of pathology.

How people cope with life and communicate, their personality style so to speak, is significant clinically because it effects how a person might communicate and how they might react to various interventions and various clinical styles (as employed by the physician). The purpose is to recognize that while some things at particular levels on intensity or pervasiveness ae disorders or illnesses, the same behaviors/traits occur in healthy people at sub-clinical levels, and to aid physicians in tailoring their intervention to the needs and traits of the client.

These traits and behaviours may have clinical significance in determining the most effective ways to communicate with or help someone, but they should not be mistaken for pathological symptoms. Currently a table of pathological behaviors and traits are presented, without particularly meaningful "cut-offs" to indicate that the same behaviors and traits at lower intensity occur in people who are healthy and non-disordered. The provision will serve to remind physicians that a "borderline personality style" is a personality style and not a disorder (for instance), and that broader Autistic phenotype is a neuro and personality style, not a disorder.

Ironically, the very thing you are complaining about is being included for the purpose of preventing the problem you claim it is symptomatic of.



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11 Feb 2010, 9:24 pm

Again, we'll just have to disagree. I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine, so we'll have to leave it at that.



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11 Feb 2010, 9:29 pm

BrooxBroox wrote:
Again, we'll just have to disagree. I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine, so we'll have to leave it at that.

You're not changing my mind because you cannot substantiate what you say and your comments make it clear that you do not know what you are talking about. If you have pre-determined that you will not change your mind regardless what facts you are presented with, it's no wonder you find yourself on the wrong side of facts to begin with.

I will happily change my mind in response to facts and reasoning. If you believe you cannot present any such facts or reasoning to substantiate your view, then I wonder why you hold the view in the first place.



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11 Feb 2010, 9:45 pm

I personally don't care what they call it. I was diagnosed general anxiety disorder and OCD when I was 6. Then at 26 it was changed to aspergers. Now at 41 they are going to change it to autism. In ten years they will be calling something else.

I've been the same and constant through the years. It's their book and knowledge that has been variable. And they're bound to change it again. Kind of makes you wonder how knowledgable they really are on the subject.



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11 Feb 2010, 10:39 pm

Francis wrote:
I personally don't care what they call it. I was diagnosed general anxiety disorder and OCD when I was 6. Then at 26 it was changed to aspergers. Now at 41 they are going to change it to autism. In ten years they will be calling something else.

I've been the same and constant through the years. It's their book and knowledge that has been variable. And they're bound to change it again. Kind of makes you wonder how knowledgable they really are on the subject.

They are more knowledgable now than they were 10 years ago, but considerably less knowledgable than they will be in ten years time.

In any area of medicine there is an initial hurdle caused by a lack of knowledge. As knowledge accumulates it supports the acquisition of further knowledge, so that the acquisition becomes exponential. Eventually this slows down as the amount of knowledge obtained increases proportionately to the amount of knowledge that can exist if all things are known. We are in the speed up phase on Autism; the amount of knowledge that now exists is enough to facilitate a greater pace of knowledge acquisition, but not yet enough that what has been learned is a significant proportion of what there is that could be known.



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12 Feb 2010, 3:59 am

Wait, so the fact that my brain doesn't operate in a manner which allows me to reflexively pick up, interpret, and react to social signals/cues/communication in the same sense which the typical human does... is a personality trait?

The urge to sit and pick at my nails, or the soothing effect that poring through mathematics/science texts has upon me... the ways in which I have always dealt with anger... most people pounded their heads on the floor when they stuttered as a kid? Punch their thighs when they screw up in a video game they know they can do better at?

I've just decided to be this way?


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12 Feb 2010, 11:19 pm

All I know is that my traits are my traits no matter what the powers-that-be want to label them. As long as I can continue access to the therapy, meds, and accommodations that are crucial to my eventually becoming a "real adult" and a productive member of society, I don't really care.

I do know that if any of those three things get cut off, I am SCREWED. I am getting so much great support now. I even work 10 hours a week and make more money per hour ($9) than I've ever made in my life, and I have a voc rehab person that is coaching me along. I have disability accommodations that I absolutely would not make it through college without (I know because I insisted upon trying, with disastrous results). I actually have a chance to live somewhat of a normal life with the "moderate Asperger's" I was diagnosed with in Oct. 2007.

I worry because I CAN put on a pretty good NT mask (although not so good anymore because I have too many sensory overload issues at uni), and now I feel like if I work really hard to appear NT, people won't believe I'm autistic. Then when the facade breaks down, as it always does, there will be nobody to help me. They'll tell me to "pull myself together" and "try harder" like they did before my DX, and that never, ever worked. So now I wonder if it is "safe" for me to pretend anymore that I'm NT.

Hope that made sense.



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13 Feb 2010, 12:00 am

Makes sense to me. I was diagnosed at twenty, after a long history of being told to pull myself together, grow up, try harder, and stop being stupid. You don't just shake that off in two seconds once you learn that a.) this is a real disability, and b.) there are work-arounds that don't involve some sort of miraculous superhuman willpower. It's not like we wanted to believe that crap; but being around it for so long, it's almost impossible not to get infected by it. So naturally now I'm still subconsciously scared that somebody will say, "Oh, no, we were wrong; you're not actually autistic; you're not allowed to get help; you're not allowed to be yourself; you're not allowed to keep these accommodations that let you succeed."

The new DSM arrangement has nothing to do with that, though. I've had those same fears since not long after my diagnosis; and they don't listen to logic. No matter how much I tell myself that multiple professionals agree on my diagnosis, that I fit the definition so well that it's unquestionable, that the accommodations I get are really reasonable and that I'm doing the work myself... I still have this idea that somehow, I'm the problem, and that the real solution is for me just to get my act together and stop pretending I'm different. No matter how much I remind myself that trying to get my act together landed me in the mental ward pretty much unable to function, somehow I still have the idea that this is what I ought to be doing.


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