Can Asperger Syndrome be mild?

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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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21 Oct 2010, 2:36 pm

Severus wrote:

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:

Severus wrote:

. . . Good point, but why is that: 'people with "milder" autism often seem to have more distress and a higher rate of comorbid depression'? Is it because they have more insight into their condition than the severe cases so they realise how different they are and this is depressing? . . .

No, speaking personally, I think it's because you more feel your exclusion. And you more see how unnecessary it is, and really how unfair it is. And that we could have a more open society, but apparently that takes quite a while

That was what I actually meant, but you said it much better. It is the feeling of being excluded indeed.

Thank you very much for the nice compliment, Severus. And I might also add that it's about being decent when we turn down or deflect the social overtures of others, for we are not required to be a particular person's friend just because he or she likes us, although it is nice to be liked. Friendships also need to work for us personally. In the early '80s I read this book entitled BRIEF ENCOUNTERS, and although it might sound like it would be a racy book and also setting aside some of the unnecessary psychology in it, it was actually a book of basic social skills. And one of the early chapters was called 'gentle de-peopling" (something like that), with the author making the valid point that before you can meet new people, it's helpful to have some degree of ease and confidence in moving away from a friendship that is no longer meeting your needs.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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21 Oct 2010, 2:42 pm

Surreal wrote:

. . . In the Twelve Traditions, it states that the group should remain "forever non-professional" so that no one person becomes more important than the next - that we can benefit from the experience of others regardless of their station in life. . .

I like that part!

(although in honesty I should say that I have found some of the AA approach a little bit too dogmatic for my tastes. I mean, different things work for different people, even things that are different in their fundamentals)

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21 Oct 2010, 2:47 pm

Surreal wrote:

. . . With Asperger's a person who is considered "higher functioning" can benefit from someone who is "more severe" in their level of apparent symptoms even if it's by observance.

And imagine just being liked for yourself, without having to do anything special, and imagine a social interaction that runs it's course and we don't need to prolong it past when it's comfortable.

So, yes, we can be open to helping some of our 'lower functioning' fellow Aspies, even some of our silent sisters and brothers. I would only add, not as a sense of obligation, that's dry as dust, but with a sense of open possibility. Wow, it might turn out really neat, or it might not, and either way is perfectly okay. Just trying to stay open to the possibility.

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21 Oct 2010, 3:36 pm

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:

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I would only add, not as a sense of obligation, that's dry as dust, but with a sense of open possibility.

That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about:!: An open sense of possibility that helps us understand who we are better versus merely trying to fit into a mold that we CANNOT fit into! I am reminded of greenturtle74's GREAT cartoon!

As for the AA approach, there are parts of THAT Fellowship's approach that are definitely dogmatic. A lot of that has to do with the Steps being derived directly from a religious movement - religion itself being dogmatic in its beliefs. The other part may have to do with the times when AA was founded (1935) where particular religious beliefs were a greater part of peoples' belief system. As you start looking at other Fellowships, their interpretation of the same tenets gets broader. In the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, people increasingly questioned traditional beliefs and as these newer Fellowships sprang up, ideas about spirituality were broadened.

At least that's MY take on the issue of dogma.

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22 Oct 2010, 7:43 am

Thanks, Calista, it was an excellent explanation. I personally gained a lot of insight from it.

For an example, now I see why after I discovered that there was a perfectly rational explanation why I felt and acted so much different from the others although there was nothing visibly wrong with me - that I had Asperger's - my depressive state, which has been on and off for that past 10 years or so (and in the last year, mostly on) almost disappeared. I am much calmer and happier now that I know that I am not simply an eccentric and difficult person who can't fit in because he's not doing his best to fit in. That is, I am still the same eccentric and difficult person, but now I can control it better.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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22 Oct 2010, 11:59 am

Surreal wrote:

. . . may have to do with the times when AA was founded (1935) where particular religious beliefs were a greater part of peoples' belief system. As you start looking at other Fellowships, their interpretation of the same tenets gets broader. In the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, people increasingly questioned traditional beliefs and as these newer Fellowships sprang up, ideas about spirituality were broadened. . .

Alright, I can work with that.

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22 Oct 2010, 12:29 pm

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In my opinion, it really depends on the symptoms that you have and which ones of those are more severe or more mild.

That is very true. Some of the main AS symptoms I don't have, and some of the less common symptoms I do have. I've always been told mine's mild, even by professional psychologists. But there are other areas of it where I have it so severe that it affects my whole life, where other areas are mild to nothing. Like, for example, when they say that one of the main AS symptoms is having difficulty reading body language, facial expression and voice tone - but for me I don't have that problem at all. As soon as I walk into a room I can tell what mood someone's in, just by ''reading'' how they greet me, or even just the expression on their face. And lots of other things too.
Also, I'm good with jokes. I always enjoy a laugh, especially at work, and when people are miserable at work I know not to just start laughing and joking with them. And I don't take things literally, and when someone's being sarcastic I always know, just by ''reading'' their tone of voice and action. So that's where I'm quite lucky in a way.
Also, I'm not very intelligent for an Aspie. I can't multiply numbers in my head, and I'm good at spelling but not great at using long words to make my speeches sound better. I just always use simple words, which makes me sound like a foriegner, or a child, or just a boring person.
I can express my feelings, and I'm always good at telling people how I feel about things. So most of my social interaction is pretty OK - for an Aspie, that is. I don't know if it's OK to NTs or not, but most of the time I feel pretty accepted, especially at work, and people enjoy my company there, so I can't be too bad.

But there are some parts of AS what I suffer with the most, and most of it doesn't show in social interaction, which means I can get away with passing myself off as NT to most people. I suffer from anxiety the most, and it's so severe that I'm very close to becoming Agoraphobic at times. I just get paranoied when I think people are looking at me out in the street, and that people are always judging me. Also I don't like my routine changed. I work volluntry at the moment until I get a paid job, and I'm delibrately taking my time looking for a paid job because I've been going to this volluntry job for so long that I've got myself caught in the routine, and starting another job will probably shatter my relaxation of life (unless I really enjoyed the new job).

So there are areas that are affecting my life, whereas other areas I don't have trouble with at all. When I looked through the AS list I only put a tick next to a few.

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22 Oct 2010, 12:42 pm

If you can function well in society and have minor difficulties in social communication then I would say thats mild.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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22 Oct 2010, 1:38 pm

Surreal wrote:

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:

Quote:

I would only add, not as a sense of obligation, that's dry as dust, but with a sense of open possibility.

That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about:!: An open sense of possibility that helps us understand who we are better versus merely trying to fit into a mold that we CANNOT fit into! . .

Yeah, Right On!

For example, instead of learning the skills to work a cocktail party, which I'm not particularly interested in, why don't I learn the skills to form a canoeing or biking or hiking club, which I am interested in!

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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22 Oct 2010, 2:21 pm

Surreal wrote:

. . . I am reminded of greenturtle74's GREAT cartoon! . . .

I agree! It's GREAT!
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt112787.html

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22 Oct 2010, 3:58 pm

Thanks, AardvarkGoodSwimmer.

In your first post in this thread, you helped me MORE than you'll EVER know! I'm a little younger than you are. But people REALLY DON'T understand the guilt and shame that go into dealing with life situations like what you have described...the criticism that you're not as good as your peers...the whole "WHY can't you just...?" And let us not forget being expected to explain not being in a relationship or understanding the purpose and dynamics of one! Well, me anyway!

Even living with family, it seems the older I get, the less I know how to even deal with THAT!

But thanks.

And thanks Robdemanc for starting this thread!

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22 Oct 2010, 5:42 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

I went to see a psyciatrist yesterday and he told me I have mild Asperger Syndrome. When I asked him what he meant by "mild" he said its because I have had a relationship in the past and have been able to work.

--snip--

So I wonder if people on here can understand my little rant, or do you think the doctor has a point?

Not sure of your doctor's reasoning, but I would say I have "mild" AS.

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23 Oct 2010, 7:59 am

Surreal wrote:

This is a great thread with great responses! Great post, Callista!

As I have said in other posts, the mild that people seem to refer to is at the level of apparent symptoms rather than the actual neurology of Asperger's/ASD/BAP, etc.

First of all, Asperger's really IS what it is. From what I've learned, it comes in so many forms and presents itself with so many variances in symptoms and levels of apparent symptoms that it is difficults to say what is mild vs. severe. BUT from the perspective of someone who MIGHT have it, a mild level of apparent symptoms does NOT equal mild effects in interacting with others. If what I have actually IS Asperger's or ASD, my apparent symptoms might APPEAR to be mild, but the EFFECT that symptom has on my interaction with others is severe.

We have many, many FINE examples of this on WP, but I'll rattle of a few personal examples for this thread:

Situation: I may walk into a room and just start talking or asking a question...I wake up and don't say anything to others in the house. It doesn't occur to me to say, "Hi, how are YOU today?" or "Good MORning!"

Effect: People yell at me that I'm rude. They then spread malicious gossip about me and make every effort to make me feel like an outcast.

I am not aware of the importance to others and am so often caught up in my own thoughts about what I need to be doing at that moment to the point of being oblivious.

Situation: A co-worker wants to hug as a greeting. I say NO because I'm not comfortable with that and I do not believe that is appropriate for the workplace.

Effect: I am labeled as anti-social (or worse).

I have a need for personal space (perhaps extreme) and only ask that people respect it whereas people think it is okay to invade my personal space.

Where Callista said, "Someone whose disability is subtle or invisible will be expected to act like a typical person, and rejected when he does not do so, often by people who have no idea he is disabled at all" I would totally agree. For those of us who are in the process of discovery, this is completely devastating - especially when you are unprepared for that type of reaction. Having WP as a safety net and a place of knowledge and understanding softens the blow so that one doesn't have to allow oneself to suffer and build up further stress.

On the surface, I do not appear to have a "disAbility" be it physical or mental. But when I run into one of the aforementioned types of situations, I get all manner of labels. I also get ostracized and mistreated by others for thinking/feeling the way I do because people mistake my intentions.

I like your response and many of the others. You are getting to my point. While it may seem that I have mild AS to a doctor, how does it seem to the NT's I end up working with? To them I am ignorant, rude, aloof, anti-social, stupid, or generally just a problem for them.

For the past few years I have been to my doctor many times complaining of stress and anxiety and depression. I have been prescribed medication for it and had some counselling which was unhelpful.

I am out of work now because of AS. I lost my job and have little insight into how exactly I lost the job. It seems they got rid of me because of my sickness record. But I don't understand how it all happened. They put me through a long process of having meetings about my health and the doctor wrote them saying I have a depressive disorder. They were of the opinion that I should have told them this before. But there is no obligation to tell employers about your health. I am still confused by the whole situation and am fearful of going back into the work place as it will probably increase my stress levels and I will become ill again. The doctors cannot see this.

I may be able to feed myself and the authorities think that because I can get on a bus and read my own mail that I can work. But as soon as I am in a situation where I have to talk with other people my stress gets intense. I get frustrated that people do not get me and make judgements on me. So it seems my "mild" aspergers is antagonised by the NT's I have to be around in the work place and so in my opinion it becomes severe. If only people were less judgemental and not so quick to draw conclusions on someone.

Someone on this website talked about a cure. Perhaps a solution could be found in raising awareness about how people should communicate. NT's should be educated in the schools and workplace about AS and the fact that communication is easily confused. People (NT and AS) should make more efforts with others to understand them. That way the problems a lot of AS people suffer could evaporate. So Aspies should learn to seek clarification more and NT's should be prepared to explain further if necessary without getting annoyed.

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24 Oct 2010, 8:38 am

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:

And I might also add that it's about being decent when we turn down or deflect the social overtures of others, for we are not required to be a particular person's friend just because he or she likes us, although it is nice to be liked. Friendships also need to work for us personally. In the early '80s I read this book entitled BRIEF ENCOUNTERS, and although it might sound like it would be a racy book and also setting aside some of the unnecessary psychology in it, it was actually a book of basic social skills. And one of the early chapters was called 'gentle de-peopling" (something like that), with the author making the valid point that before you can meet new people, it's helpful to have some degree of ease and confidence in moving away from a friendship that is no longer meeting your needs.

Trouble is, while we are feeling that we are being decent and honest (and we are), people assume that we're being rude - because there's obviously nothing apparently wrong with us that could validate our refusal to participate in those social overtures. Most people can carry on with bad or, at least, functionless relationships of any kind for years, and the society generally approves or acquiesces with it (being easy-going, forgiving and forgetting, etc.) While, when a person with ASD plainly refuses to go into such a relationship because he or she sees no point or sees beneath the veneer of 'socialzing' , he is labeled mad, egotistical, full of him-or herself or rude.

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24 Oct 2010, 3:29 pm

You're very welcome, Surreal! I am in there trying. And sometimes I'm able to do good work of the head and the heart. And sometimes for a variety of reasons, I'm not. Let's chalk this one up as a success!

Okay, rolling forward, my own social skills, my next potential girlfriend, I plan to tell her in two steps
1)'Yeah, I'm a nerd big time. On the subjects that interest me, I can be pretty intensely intellectual . . '
2)'I'm Aspie, that means Asperger's Syndrome, on the autism spectrum . . '
If she's very receptive, I may let the first flow into the second on a single occasion, and I may make a botch of it, and that will be okay. That will be part of the texture. And she may need some time to process it, that's also okay. Of course I hope to do a good job of back-and-forth communication, but I'm not going to try and force myself in some clumsy way and then be hard on myself afterward. I'll just reasonably try my best.

And she will need to generally understand two things: that I have patchy social skills (when I overlook things, I usually don't mean it), and that I need large amounts of alone time.

--------

Okay, on the political front, I think we can draw a lot of lessons from the Civil Rights Movement, the disABILITY Rights Movement starting from the mid-1970s (some of it poignantly described in Joseph Shapiro's great book 'No Pity'), can learn from Gay Rights, from Native American Rights, etc. etc, that it is okay to be different in ways that count.

And another thing, successful movements for social change usually are messy, chaotic, poorly organized, and in zen like fashion, we should be open to just accepting that. And people get tired and a kind of fatigue sets in and people have seasons, and that's okay, too. So people will likely have active periods and fallow periods. And people will also engage in different activities. Some people will publish on line, other people might have face-to-face meetings, for example, with those in hiring positions, etc, and all this activity, in a series of fits and starts (and that's okay) will bring about social change. And imperfect is probably better than perfect anyway! (it's more interesting at any rate)

Maybe the closest analogy is the gay rights movement. This is politically charged, and for me personally, too, for I have a nasal voice that is sometimes perceived as 'gay.' Now, mid-way through the gay rights struggle, people agreed, yes, a person should be treated fairly on the job. If a person is doing a good job, he or she should not be fired or given a hard time merely because he or she is gay. So maybe we can get that victory in the next 5 to 10 years for Asperger's. Or maybe a more far-reaching victory. Like a football game or basketball game or soccer game or any other fluid situation, we need to use right-brain thinking in addition to left-brain thinking, see what's available, try some things, take some chances, graciously accept failure, and also graciously accept success for that, too, will come, and at unpredictable times.

I am actually kind of hopeful.

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25 Oct 2010, 10:17 am

Robdemanc wrote:

Quote:

While it may seem that I have mild AS to a doctor, how does it seem to the NT's I end up working with? To them I am ignorant, rude, aloof, anti-social, stupid, or generally just a problem for them.

I had to look at your post twice because there's so much of me in it! FUNNY, for someone who might NOT have AS, I certainly have a lot of similar TRAITS and experiences!

Your post and AardvarkGoodSwimmer's point about socio-political change for Aspies goes BACK to the original post and point of this thread about Asperger's being considered MILD!

The POINT being that there IS NO SUCH THING as MILD ASPERGER'S! I mean, NOT as a put-down to the OP or anything. I've said it before and I'll STAND on it; the ONLY difference is at the level of APPARENT symptoms (LAS) or things people can SEE! The neurology of AS is what makes the determination, PERIOD.

In order for a socio-political movement to have a SNOWBALL'S chance of success, we have to SOMEhow get past allowing people to label us MILD vs. SEVERE. To ME, it seems like a way to divide people with AS; it keeps those whose LAS is not as noticeable from getting MUCH needed HELP. At the SAME time, it permits society to treat those with more visible LAS to be regarded as ret*ds who need to be institutionalized or otherwise separated from mainstream society. The point is that ANYone with AS needs SOME level of help in life - perhaps some accomodation AND a LOT of understanding.

It would SEEM, then, that the movement will have to start from WITHIN where Aspies have to dispense with the MILD/SEVERE labels. After that, Aspies will have to stop allowing professionals to do it. "No, I do NOT have MILD ASPERGER'S, I have Asperger's, PERIOD!" I would like to see that course of action have some impact on what goes into the DSM.

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