For those who do actually make a living at your talent...

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Hey, you know what? I just saw a really interesting documentary last night on PBS. It wasn't about Autism, but it was about creative people in the advertising business. Some of the businesses they documented were started as partnerships of only two people. One, very creative, but lousy with people, and the other, the "liaison" of sorts. It was funny how the liaison partner did most of the talking for the documentary, and one took the crew into his partners office area. Holy crap! His office looks just like my work area at home! Like a freakin' bomb went off in it!

Good points Calista. Thanks. The stuff you surmise may be going through the NT mind, are also things that go through my own. I've noticed the same things. Those NT's with really high social skills are rare. So rare, they seem to be in very high demand and tough to secure for my own purposes. All that I've ever met have full schedules and fifty other people in line ahead of me waiting for their attention. I'm terrible with that level of competition.

It's just as well I didn't post before your response to HighPlateau. It is helpful that you have clarified more what it is you want to do, or can do. Before that I pretty much thought "music" meant playing gigs.

Right. This may turn into a very very lengthy post. My style is as epic as yours, and then some. If you have questions I'm happy to clarify.

Slightly O/T

So since your most recent qualification I now think those posts you made in frustration about not getting the advice you were looking for  may have been some of your "troughs". Which is absolutely fine, everbody's got those, and I've seen a few other fiery  posts on other threads since then, and frankly, you emerge as a more rounded individual as a result. That's a good thing. [/O/T]

Now then. I'm neither autistic nor a good networker but I have read your posts on this thread very carefully.  So I don't have the Aspie illustrated step-by-step guide to how to build a network and succeed in the music business while not starving or neglecting your responsibilities as a family man or losing the plot because of your ASD either.
 Edit: I now realise it's more IT and less music although music is what you enjoy most.

The step by step guide is what I think you are looking for, and I think if it existed in this form I think you'd  have found it by now. People have given you various interesting and wildly different pointers, as you acknowledge. I have my own views on some of those pointers.

 For instance HighPlateau who does all her client contact by email & post. Good for her, but what she does seems very niche, and I do not think it can be replicated in the music business if you want to play gigs. It might be different if you want to compose, that you may be able to do remotely (this para unedited despite more info now available.)

Communication styles/Face to face interaction

I deal with a lot of companies and individuals although I don't work for them in the way you might, I work for the government and have to determine whether they're complying with certain regulations. 

Many managers and directors I initially "meet" over the phone. All I can say is that I find it nearly impossible to size people up over the phone. Are they good, bad or indifferent? No idea. It just doesn't come across reliably. Emails & letters ditto. Paper is patient (meaning people can write anything but it may bear no relation to the truth). Only when I meet them face to face can I determine whether they're trustworthy, devious or clueless. 

What I'm saying is that if you were doing work for me that involved more then unblocking my drains or fixing my roof I would want a meeting. If you refused that would be an end of it. At the meeting itself I'd be perfectly happy to accommodate any issues that you might have so long as you tell me what they are but the meeting itself would have to happen. 

Apologies to those readers who think NT accommodation should stretch to wholesale acceptance of ASD communication styles. What about my communication style needs? It has to be a two way street, esp in a contractor-client relationship, and more so one that involves creativity.

 Once (crucially) a working relationship, and the concomitant trust, exist, then fine, let's have only meetings that are absolutely necessary. By then I would know you better and if you can't remember what is said in meetings we can have them minuted or even recorded so you can take the record home if it helps.

Agents

So the agent idea. It's a good one in principle but you would have to have a close working relationship and up to a point you would have to let them run the show. On  the "focus vs keeping your options open" continuum you would have to jump to their tune a fair bit (which you may not enjoy) but the upside would be that you would mostly just have to interact with that one person's demands rather than those of each individual client's.

 The agent would also absorb some of the frustrations with clients changing their minds (they do all the time) though you'll still end up having to do the extra  work. An agent wants paying though so it's in his/her interest to get the clients to pay a fair price not mates' rates.

Eccentricity

Here's the thing. You have invested much time and effort into improving some of your ASD related issues, and as far as I can tell from your posts, very successfully. One poster advised to just (go back and) be eccentric, and then people can take you or  leave you. For what it's worth,   I think you do not want to roll back the years and throw away the skills you've worked hard to gain just to become more eccentric.

That an NT would take that view will not surprise you. But I also think that the amount of knowledge and insight you have gained into how you were then and how you are now would make it difficult to go back, even if you wanted to. Plus, the field that you are looking to work in is likely to involve a lot of small to medium size businesses who  are unlikely to deal well with large amounts of eccentricity.

Contacts

That's possibly  the crux of everything you have said on this thread. A lot of my advice below is for meeting with people but that presumes you have managed to get a contact to that point. 

The only way I could work out if you are making AS related mistakes in your email exchanges who are apparently offering you work (that's great!) is by actually seeing the correspondence. For a variety of reasons that's not easy to arrange. But with my NT hat on I'd say if someone does not respond to my emails I will telephone them. Not a preferred Aspies medium I gather from reading WP. But that's what I would do and expect others to do too. 

So why are you losing the contacts that you do have? I don't know of course  but I think you may have a tendency to overexplain. You think you're saying yes, let's do this, then highlight a few caveats (because you're honest and want to manage their expectations perhaps), but what the other person hears is "yes but" which to them probably sounds more like "no" (I don't want to put a long quote in, this is your ex-tutor example of being offered work and then not hearing back.)

I also get the sense that you are overemphasising the"networking" aspect in the sense that people aren't networks, they are individuals in the first instance. Every person you meet wants to be treated as such, not as a potential network node. If you can manage to give your full attention to one client at a time that is where to start. 

If you don't go with the agent idea you  may need to persevere at practising being in a room with a person you don't know well, who is a prospective client, and with whom you will exchange some opening pleasantries, talk a bit about yourself (a bit!) then discuss ideas for the project, run a demo or present a mock up (it depends a but at what stage if the process the meeting takes place) then negotiate the deal, or else bring the meeting to a close and submit your project proposal or spec. A bit like a job interview (which you say you are good at) but one where you try to subtly steer the conversation towards your products, your services and what you can do for them. You'll need to do a lot of checking back (is this what you had in mind? etc).

You could do it the hard way by doing a bit of meet & greet at a local business fair, introduce yourself, and hopefully  walk away with one arranged follow up meeting where you can showcase your product/services.

What you can see is that there may be quite a bit of preparatory work involved on your presentation, product etc, but also on the face to face stuff.

The best way forward would be to revive those contacts you already have but that you seem to keep losing. I should try this first even if it may have involve the dreaded telephone.

If that doesn't work then you need to find out why you have lost these people who clearly liked and respected you enough to offer you work at times. 

That  could be a major step forward, and for that you need to reconnect with them the hard way and  try to find out what happened. I hate to say it, but I think they need to be (low key) face to face meetings. Suggest going for a coffee and a chat, catch up on what they've done and you've done since you last had contact. Then if the atmosphere is good and relaxed, carefully introduce  the subject of future work. As a hypothesis ("how would you feel about me doing xyz or us doing abc..."). If the answer is an unequivocal yes, make firm arrangements for  the next meeting (in whatever form). 

If the answer is vague, evasive, or no then you need to encourage them to speak openly to you as to why they're not keen. It maybe simply that there is no work.

 But if they open up to you then be prepared to hear things you don't want to hear, and more importantly, that you may not be able to deal with straight away. I of course can't predict what people  might say, but whatever it is stay calm. Thank them for their feedback and openness. If it's something you can explain away in 3 sentences then do it. If it's more complex then resist the temptation to argue or explain it right there in 30 sentences but don't end the interaction, ask them what they think you can do do overcome this issue/barrier/obstacle.

Yes, ask their advice, or possibly even if they would be prepared to help you with that. Say that you will have to do some thinking and get a firm commitment for a follow up (I'll email you next week to find out when it's convenient to call you/meet up at your offices for a chat/etc. Go back to some more small talk or social chit-chat for  a while  before parting so the interaction ends on a relaxed and hopefully friendly note.

Edit: I undoubtedly sound like I am telling you what to do, which I've no business to do and which you may not take kindly to, esp from someone who is NT. That's only partly the case, more of a throwback to my teaching days plus in my current role I often do have to be directive and some of that seeps into my personal life which is a bit of a problem. In the main I hope you can use the above paragraphs as scenarios, to play them through in your head and see how they "taste"/feel. I fully appreciate how difficult all of this is in practice. [end of edit]

There are infinite permutations for this subject but you may have to forget about having a large network and instead build colleagues, ex-bosses or acquaintances who could be clients or get you clients  into closer  acquaintances or almost-friends so that everyone is comfortable about communicating openly. Then take it from there.

Very long post, I know, but I think it's worth showing the thought process and that takes up space. Hope it helps.

 

Last edited by readingbetweenlines on 09 Dec 2011, 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Excellent advice that I put into place over ten years ago. I haven't had a car loan in over ten years, and the only major purposes I've made since then were all computer and digital music equipment and software, and related stuff with plans to eventually find a way to make just enough of a living with to pay existing bills. "Getting rich" is not on the agenda.



Not sure what you qualify as "pie-in-the-sky." There's a lot of people out there who were told their dreams were that and did it anyway. Most, I agree, do fail, but only those who don't listen to nay-sayers ever get where they want to be, even if the dream is modest. What qualifies as pie-in-the-sky is kind of relative.

I'm more in agreement with avoiding one-trick pony acts. There's lot's of conflicting views about that, and it seems to work either way. Some do well with focusing on one specific thing and becoming the best or at least among the top in their field, and do very well at it. I think that all depends on the person. Me? I've never been good at being the best at anything in particular. I am much more of a "big picture" person. I know quite a bit about most aspects of a larger "thing," but not enough to be an expert about any of them. I can see how to make all the parts work together, with some decent degree of understanding how each part works on its own as well as in tandem with the others.



I get what you're saying. I think we're a little different from each other though. I know whatever I do end up making money at will be closely related to the things I've already been doing for several years now. It would make sense to do that because that's where my experience lies, and I actually like all of them. They are all part of what makes me me. I do what I am, so what I am is what I do. They are inextricably linked, because that's how I chose what to do. I do what I love.

I may end up doing something different from what I start out with, but it won't be totally different. It will be closely related.

I should add that I don't even think of this journey as a "career." It's just what I do, and that can change. "Career" comes with the connotation for me of a path one doesn't stray from. It makes me think of a "JOB." And I hate that word.



Why not? Because I might get sick of it? I don't see it that way at all. If it becomes "doldrums," then I haven't chosen something I love enough. If the passion for it is strong enough, I won't ever get tired of doing it. I can be pretty passionate about quite a lot of different things too. That may be an advantage.

I think I get what you really mean though, which is to not let what I love become so repetitive a task that I get sick of doing it. There are quite a few things I would never get tired of doing though. There are many more things that I like and are fun for a period of time, that I do tire of if I do them too much. I have a fairly good handle on which of those are which.

@ readingbetweenlines: I'll have to look more closely at your last post later, but i will get back to it within the next few days I hope. Thanks.

The thing is, though playing gigs isn't where anything I was trying to do at first was going to go, that could very well change. TBH, there is a strong probability I will end up splitting time between strictly money-making activities, and strictly passions. There is a good chance they will overlap too.



Expected. Not many questions really, just some comments as far as I can tell right now. That may change as I'm posting.



O/T <--- Hey, look at that! A question right off the bat! What's "O/T?" Off Topic?

Yeah, you've got the crest/trough concept meaning down. That is exactly what I mean. I crest when my AS adaptive methods are running at peak. I "through out" when it's becomes too tiresome to keep it up. I usually don't even know I'm "troughing" until after the fact. I almost always require something of a recoup period before riding up the next wave. If I remember to when I get there, there's a point lower down that relates to this, albeit indirectly.



1 - "While not starving... etc." pretty much nails it. Anything more would be welcome icing on the cake.

2 - More of my skills may fall within the IT realm, but frankly I do want whatever I do to either have a strong "bent" toward music, or for it to be mainly focused on music. That's my "druther" but I can be happy making money at any of them. I would always be looking for a way to squeeze music in as part of it, or change it entirely to be totally music in focus.

3 - Actually I'm not looking for a "step-by-step" guide at all. They don't work for networking, for reasons you actually got into later. Networking is all about people and people are far to unpredictable for step-by-step methodologies.

 

Absolutely! I couldn't agree with you more on these points. WHENEVER a face to face is possible, I insist on it.

There is a caveat where this is concerned with me. A LOT of the folks I've connected with over the past five years, I have never met, and am not likely to meet, because I met them over the internet. I have contacts in several states. Most are not "paying prospects" but could be resources I could use to help with certain projects. Some could be good for routing projects to me. Only a couple are actual paying "clients." None are within reasonable driving distance.

Video conferencing is the nearest thing to meeting in person I would be able to do. Establishing some closer contacts is something I know I'm going to have to start working on soon.



Add my own apology to them as well.

What about my communication style needs? As far as I'm concerned, I am responsible for them. No one else is or should have to be. It may not be my fault I come with certain built-in quirks and preferred communication styles, but it isn't anyone else's fault either. I prefer face to face establishment of relationships, or lacking that, at least by phone or extended written communication, but once trust is established, writing is best. I can be a bit choleric about that, and that plays into yet another point you made below. I'll tie that in when I get there.

 



I hate the very idea of having an agent. If I were able to, which I am unfortunately not, a life coach would suit me far better. I realize the roles are completely different. I would never be able to subject myself to an agent's whims and ideas of what "works" and what doesn't.



No, no plans to "go back." Though admitting to and living with the crests and troughs is an inescapable reality. There ARE certain things about me anyone who works closely with me should in all fairness understand and be able to accept. The aforementioned troughs is one of them, but there are a few other things, in the interests of time and brevity I won't get into detail here, that are "constants" I've not been able to overcome. Depending on who the person is, and what their role is, they may or may not need to know about them. I'm pretty careful who I share what with.

However, this is where I will "tie in" my occasional tendency to be "choleric," as well as "cresting and troughing." I am not most of the time, choleric. I can be though, when it comes to certain aspects of work. I am very "matter-of-fact" about what I can do and cannot do. I am the same when it comes to the necessity to have certain things in writing and any other parameters with which there simply can be no compromising. I don't shout and scream about them. I just state them factually. I can also be somewhat "melancholy" at times, but most of the time I'm fairly phlegmatic. As a result I can appear "even-keeled" or moody, depending on the circumstances. I have been told I am somewhat eccentric, I think because of these variances. These variances seem to also coincide to some extent with "cresting and troughing," as you seem to have observed yourself here in the forums.



My goal is to be an independent freelancer at whatever I do, preferably working at home for the most part, if not always. Some face to face meetings are fine, as well as some work being done either at people's homes and offices (for example, to walk someone through steps on their own computers or other equipment ~ but a lot of that can be done through desktop sharing once the level of trust necessary for that is reached). I can also foresee out of home work to do face to face planning/strategizing or presentations.

It was suggested by someone in this thread that a partnership might be in order. I have seen the advantages of having a partner who understands my creative but eccentric bent, who can play the role of intermediary/controller of sorts. That's something to think seriously about.



I am in total agreement with all of this. Out of financial necessity I've done myself a bit of a disservice by having my land line shut of recently. I am now stuck with a garbage cell phone that is fine for emergencies and quick absolutely necessary calls, but totally sucks for extended conversations. I can talk for extended periods through VOIP chats, but not everyone can do that. I will be getting set up with Magic Jack fairly soon though. I hope it's better than it used to be when it first came out. I hear it's improved quite a bit. We'll see. For $25 a year it's worth a try anyway.



How'd you figure THAT one out? I think you're right and that had occurred to me. Especially with the most recent exchange with THE most important contact I have at the moment. There were caveats, unfortunately, related to an unexpected urgent matter that came up right before he contacted me. A family member had a medical emergency, that required many repeated drives for a couple of months. I told my contact I would be able to get some work done, but could not promise "drop of he hat" availability. Once things calmed down in that regard, I emailed him again to let him know my availability had opened up, and that I could meet online with him at any time. I haven't heard from him since his first email. I have already planned to place a call to him soon.



Perhaps it's the way I've worded something. I'm not sure. I am always fully aware that I'm dealing with much more than a name on a list. I always want to know as much as I can about them all. Motivation is extremely important to me. I want to know what drives them to better understand how what I do serves them and vice versa.

This ties in with the point I made earlier about contacts being people. They sure are, and if you don't take the time to get to know them as individuals with wants and needs of their own, you can forget about networking. I'm all about knowing and understanding people as well as I can. I'm all about caring what their wants and needs are. TBH, there are times when that actually gets me into trouble, but I don't think that's AS related at all. I think that is their own insecurities coming into play. It's funny how I'm the one who doesn't care much for small talk, yet when I do try to get to know people, and start asking questions, once in a while I get the "Why do you ask?" response. That's an obvious red flag that I'm dealing with a very guarded person. For the most part, this isn't a problem very often. Most people don't seem to have a problem when I ask questions, because I don't get very personal with them.

In all honesty, this is one area in which I seem to luck out most of the time. For some reason people in general seem to open up to me. Most are comfortable telling me quite a bit about themselves, even if I'm not asking. One on one I do fine in this regard. As soon as it becomes a group thing though (as in someone else's project), that's where I can start to flub up. If I'm suddenly thrown in with a good size group, none of whom I know, and whose roles are not crystal clear to me, I can get lost in a hurry, and wander into situations where I don't belong. Think I'm getting a little off topic here though.



With where I am right now, this is getting ahead of myself. Down the road though, once I have a clearer idea of what I'm really doing, yes, definitely.



This is on the back burner right now. Personal crap gets in the way right now. Schooling issues with the kids and family stuff. It should all be cooling down in about a month, so I do plan to "get out there" early next year.



Agreed. I have planned this.



Good idea. I had actually considered doing this. I have a bad habit though, of second guessing myself too much sometimes, and was somewhat afraid this might fit into that category. I guess maybe it doesn't really. I mean, if things have gone sour, and it appears that way, what's the harm in second guessing then? Seems like the perfect time to do it.



No worries. All true, and I don't take it as you thought I might. I asked for advice. That's what this is.



There sure are. I'm not even trying to build a huge network. I don't need one very big at all. My financial goals for right now aren't big enough to warrant an extensive network. That may come down the road, but starting small is what I'm all about. I'm not needy or greedy. Once I get SOME steady income though, making that grow is definitely in the play-book.

Thank you very much for your time and effort!

So yeah, this is exactly what I'm trying to do. If anyone else out there who has been able to do this kind of networking, and has had to overcome certain Autistic traits they believe held them back, but were able to overcome them to do it, I'd love you hear how you did it!

To answer the original question, what I love to do more than anything else in life is drawing horses. I am kind of ashamed to say that I enjoy drawing them more than I enjoy riding them (which is just peachy with them!). Nowadays I make a living drawing horses for a horse-centered online game. How did this happen, you might well ask? It's a long, long succession of accidents....

* I ended up getting a part-time, freelance job as a mechanical artist at an advertising studio in New York. Supposed to last a week. I got that job because somebody who knew the guy who hired me knew me slightly and all the other mechanical artists were busy.

* I turned out to be so good at the job that within six months I was Studio Manager, and had a raise. I originally thought I would use it to pay for grad school, but then I realized, I could fulfill my childhood obsession and finally buy a horse of my own! I kept my horse at the Prospect Park stables in Brooklyn.

* Horse ownership being far more overwhelming than they can possibly tell you in books, I became friends with another woman who boarded a horse there. We would ride all day and play arcade games all evening!

Many years passed. We both left Brooklyn. We corresponded from time to time.

* She told me about this cool game she was playing. Next thing you know, we were both playing.

* The game had quests. I asked for permission to write quests... then I became a moderator, then an admin, then customer support, then....

* a new version of the game came up and the original horse artist quit. I tried out for the job. Alas, horses needed to be drawn in Flash, which I didn't have.

Here's the important part: * When I told the boss me I couldn't have the job because I would need to learn Flash, and having me learn Flash would be a "waste of resources," I went ballistic. You *do not say this* to a woman of my generation, no matter what you mean by it! I bought Flash and taught myself to use it! Then every once in a while, told the bosses, "The game could use a [particular thing] so here's one I did up quick."

* And I was offered the job of drawing the new horses for the original game! And here I am drawing horses for a living! What a racket!

I don't know if that information is useful or just silly, but there it is. And I have to say, the players seem to really like the horses!

Yes, o/t is off topic. In the only other online forum I ever briefly took part in (the one for LOST) people used it all the time. Here on WP  people blithely go off topic quite a lot but no one seems that bothered about it. I don't mean completely o/t, but often people just pick up one line or word of your post and then run away with it regardless of the OP's question. The newbie thread is a case in point!

I'm NT so cannot claim to know what it's like to have AS or  PDD-NOS but I know something about adaptive methods. I have to use up a lot of my energy to try to offer a presentable face to the world (mostly in the workplace). It's a skewed comparison, I could function without my adaptive methods, I might just not keep my job for very long, and until I worked out what is required I quit job after job because it was just unbearable, but frankly, so was I.

But it's emphatically not the same thing and it must be confusing or possibly a revelation for people who don't know you well to see you in trough/choleric mode if they know you only  as Mr Phlegmatic!

What's "druther"?

If you are ok with face to face meetings or even welcome them then you are a much better placed than many who post here. I take it that has also been as a result of the hard work you've done on your interpersonal skills?

Ah yes the US of A. In little old Europe it's easy to forget the vast distances you have. So I can understand your far flung client/contacts base if I remind myself very carefully that meeting up with them is an unlikely option. I don't envy you that, frankly, though it's nice for a holiday (the open spaces mean). 

Somehow I'm not surprised you are not keen on the agent idea. But you are right, the partnership idea is a good one and well worth considering if you meet someone who are either trying to do similar things or perhaps even better, someone whose skills complement rather than replicate yours.

Being choleric is something I understand. My father was choleric, and I am too although less so than when I was younger. I am still quick to anger but equally, once it's out of my system I'm fine. Trouble is, by getting it out of your system it's quite easy to alienate others in the process. I try not to lose it in team meetings (=my idea of hell) too much, but by golly it's hard.

Wow - no landline. How much is a landline in the US!? And what's Magic Jack?

Losing a work contact due to family circumstances: At the risk of sounding harsh or even provoking an angry reaction  I would like you to look at this area of your life. Was it a genuine one-off? In which case fine, ignore what I'm saying below, and I'm sure you'll get another chance to prove yourself to this key contact (and it is vital you do reconnect). 

But there is another possibility. Are you somehow always the person who is left "holding the baby"? Do people depend on you in a way that stops you from pursuing your professional goals?

Once you have created your "one happy client" (to use HighPlateau's words) then even if there is a crisis they'll be way more inclined to be flexible with you because they already know you can deliver the goods. Until you have proved that to them unfortunately they'll be looking for an unequivocal "yes", no ifs or buts. It may mean being a bit hard nosed about your work for a time, and if there is a crisis then someone else has to deal with it. There has to be a Plan B that does not involve you. Is this feasible for you?

It's great that you're curious about people and that is quite different from small talk. You want to find out what makes them tick. I think that's an asset. And your remarks about how this and you work much less well in a group situation is spot on and not o/t. Groups are a pain. 

I'm not sure I understand this paragraph because I'm not sure what 'second guessing yourself' means. It may be an Americanism or else I just don't get it (English is not my first language).

Thus far my thoughts. I think you're well placed to make the things you want to happen happen. Will it be easy? Absolutely not. Will you need a bit of luck ? I think so. Will you find out lots more stuff about yourself along the way? Guaranteed. And I think that in itself will motivate you to move forward with your ideas.