How do you know when it is okay to make an introduction?

Post Reply New Topic

The only way I can change my approach is no approach at all, which unfortunately I might have to do. Not sure why they feel like they are in so much danger because a guy made a joke to them in a public place where there are witnesses all around. And also not sure why some of them feel the need to respond in the horrible ways they do. And I'm also not sure why those women in other countries feel safe when I talk to them. I wasn't expecting it to change because it is unpalatable to me. I was mostly looking for an explanation and some advice, but there seems to be none. I do think this is a cultural problem for the reason I just mentioned.

About 12 years ago, I started asking male friends about their dating experiences (which males usually don't do). One day I was at a party and noticed this woman, not the most gorgeous one at the party, but she seemed clearly different, somehow very confident and charismatic and different. I was attracted to her and much more than just physical attraction. I watched her for a while, but never talked to her because she was talking to a bunch of other people. Later that night, I asked some guys on the back patio about dating. One guy spoke up immediately and he said, "It isn't you. Don't blame yourself. You're not doing anything wrong." Then he said, "Americans are sexually repressed." I could not believe he said that since I had always heard that Americans are so sexually open. Then he said, "See that woman in the kitchen?" (pointing to the woman I had been attracted to earlier) "That's my wife. She's from Brazil. She's great." I talked to that guy for about 30 minutes and what he said stuck with me, especially the part about Americans being sexually repressed.

Then about 5 years after that I was having a random conversation with my female Panamanian friend, can't remember exactly what we were talking about. Suddenly, in the middle of our conversation, and to my surprise, she said, "Well, American are sexually repressed". Again, I could not believe what I was hearing, and for the second time in my life. People in Thailand were also very aware of the problems westerners have dating too. (I stayed in Thailand for a few months and had what I guess you might call 1.5 relationship there.) Americans definitely have relationship problems, as much as we hate to admit it. The world knows all about these issues and they are indeed cultural problems.

Unfortunately, I think this might be the exact cause of the cultural problems I was alluding to. I think we have higher than average rates of violence against women and it makes dating much harder for everyone. It is sad, but it does affect the way they respond to nice guys.



I could I guess, but I don't really plan my attempts at starting conversations with women. They are usually spontaneous. So it would be hard to bring a friend along when I don't know if it is even going to happen.



I didn't mean to make it sound like every one does that. I could count them on one hand over the last 15 years, but the magnitude of the hostility that some of them respond with is very disturbing. I'm sure you have never seen women act that way, but they do. I've never seen men commit acts of violence against women either, because it only happens in private, not when I am around. There are things that women do also that other women never see for the same reason. Abuse between the sexes goes both ways and there is an equal amount of it floating around out there. Women might not rape men, but the scars last just as long, and the psychological trauma too.

Also, a park in broad daylight with lots of other people around (even police)? Seriously? If that is a dangerous environment to western women then I think our cultural problems are much worse than I thought. It's not like I was creeping around in the dark spooking them in the middle of the night or something. I guess as long as I am in the US, I should get used to being considered a rapist. I had thought that showing them that I am nice might be enough, but maybe not.

Anyway, thanks for your advice and taking the time to help. I think I will take your advice about going to other countries to meet women which has worked well for me already. I wish there were a way to fix the problems we have here.

in my city, a man in the armed forces was out running in a park in the daytime. he became separated from the group and disappeared... most like abducted or killed. parks can be very dangerous places, even in the daytime.

you might want to talk to people about what may be considered safer places to meet women. but i stand by the idea it is not going to be very effective for you (or for most men) to simply approach strange women, regardless of the environment.

when you are a stranger, yes women need to assume you could be dangerous. dangerous strangers are usually very friendly and charming, which is how they lure someone away. they have no idea what your actual intentions are.

I have used that rude, hostile form of rejection a few times and I will tell you why I did it. Generally, when a guy approached me and I wasn't interested, he would respond to a polite rejecion. But there were a few times when this didn't work. The loud, rude, hostility had a dual purpose for the man who wouldn't back off:

1)it attracted attention- witnesses, in case he tried to get physical

2)it let him know that I was ready, willing and able to fight back

If you are getting this response from women frequently it means you are scaring them. What you are seeing is the human version of a cat that raises its fur to appear bigger when it feels threatened. The timid approach is no more reassuring to women than the aggressive approach. A timid man who suddenly decides to "teach her a lesson" is just as terrifying as a man who uses an aggressive approach from the start.

I was given all sorts of warnings about strange men approaching me by my Mom. It is now my turn to teach those same things to my daughter. Mothers don't teach daughters that they shopuld talk to strange men just in case those men turn out to be nice. They teach their daughters that this recklessness can cost you your life. At least that's what my Mom taught me. As do many Moms.

You will have to change your approach so that it doesn't trigger danger flags in women. The reason that "join a club" is such common advice is because it allows men and women to be together in a safe space.

Why does this approach work elsewhere? Partly the novelty factor. Partly (perhaps largely) that cultural differences prevent your approach from triggering their "something is wrong" alarms. Every girl who has been friendly when approached by you this way in a foreign country has probably rebuffed with equal vigor a local man who violated local norms of male/female interaction. As a foreigner, you are outside those norma and not beholden to them. But in your own country, you have to follow the protocol. And the protocol is clearly Stop Approaching Women In Random Places. There has to be a reason for her to be in your company. Clubs provide a reason. That's why so many recommend them.

Well, I can tell you that not all women start out polite and then move to the loud, rude, hostile resonse. Some of them blow up before I can get my third syllable out. And you might be interested to know that it is extremely effective. If you don't want a guy to talk to you (or any other women for the rest of his life), then this is the most effective response. From the male's perspective it is a bit like casually opening your refrigerator expecting to see food and beverages, but instead having a bomb blow up in your face. I would think that there might be some men out there who are not as nice as I am who might actually become violent because of such a response.



I would not use the word "frequently", but it has happened multiple times over a period of years. I also knew a female friend who had a friend who used to blow up at men if they uttered a word in her direction. She thought it was really cool. I lost respect for her when I found that out about her.



If I could think of a club I wanted to join I might do that. I have these images of joining some club in the hope of meeting women and paying membership dues and going to the club to discover no one as an eligible girlfriend and wondering why I am even there.

My way of knowing when its appropiate to approach someone is quite childish but it works most of the times.

I see a person I would like to know better, I make them know Ive noticed them, usually a hand gesture like waving at them (some sort of shy waving that has nothing to do with how I would greet a friend), if the other person answers to the gesture smiling or something similar its safe to say that you can approach them and they wont react badly, if they look at you like you are a freak or something dont waste your time trying because its not going to work out.

A real life example:
The other day I was at a book signing, it was some sort of chick lit book(Im into that sue me) so I was surrounded by girls.The event started with the author giving some information about his new book and answering questions from the crowd, I didnt start trying to introduce myself to random girls there because I would have made a fool of myself.

An hour afterwards I was queueing to get the book signed and some random strangers approached me asking why there were so many people there, as I answered I noticed a girl was looking at me so I did a gesture to let her know that I wouldnt mind talking and we started talking for about 30 minutes(we were at the start of the queue but the author was taking his time and getting to know his fans), none of this would have happened if I had just approached her out of the blue.

This may sound harsh but you just cant try to connect with someone out of the blue and some circunstances have to happen to make it a good time for approaching someone and you are going to have to learn when its right to approach them and when its not. A friendly gesture does the trick for me but you have to find what works best for you.

They (and I) aren't thinking about the man's future. They are thinking about their own. When women do this, they aren't wondering about what the man's future conversations will be like. Nor should they. They are looking out for themselves.




I know, but women need to do it anyway. All they could potentially gain by talking to a man who approached this way is a nice conversation. What they could potentially lose is their safety (rape/beating) or life. The potential gains just don't outweigh the potential risks. I had to explain this to a male friend many years ago. He was actually on his way to the party I was throwing. It was about 9pm (time of the party). When he arrived at my house for the party, he told me that on the way over, a woman had crossed the street to avoid walking past him. I knew the street he named. It was often empty at 9pm. I explained that she was just being safe. He said, "but you know that I would never hurt any woman. I'm not like that". And I did know that. But she didn't. I could see that his feelings were genuinely hurt. But I could see it from her point of view too. She had no way of knowing he was a great guy on his way to my party. So I do realize it hurts any man's feelings. But safety trumps feelings.






That is a genuine risk and I've had to gauge it very, very carefully. There was once a man who came on to me on the bus and the vibe I got from him was that if I blew up at him or in any way attracted the attention of other bus passengers, he was the type who might turn violent. So instead I made myself just as boring and bland as I could possibly be. I made all my answers to his questions as banal as possible and tried not to say or do anything potentially interesting because I wanted him to forget my face and forget everything about me. He seemed really like a grenade with its' pin pulled. I got off the bus well prior to my actual stop (but not at the next stop because I didn't want him to think I was "escaping") and went into a store where I could observe from the window if he got off too without him seeing me observing. A very scary man. So I know there is a danger in that form of rejection and it can't be all-purpose.




Get to know a little about a club before joining. A lot of places will try to woo members by letting them attend free the first time. Take advantage of that so you don't find yourself in exactly that predicament.

edited to add: Spongy is doing it a very good way. My post is all about how your current way scares women. His way doesn't. That's why it works.

I think I really do understand this better now and I thank those of you for sharing your thoughts on it and being so patient and understanding. Any more comments anyone would like to add are perfectly welcome too.

I am just not much of a club person, but I will think about that and maybe join one. And I guess I'll also go back to not talking to women and not looking at them either. I think it will cause me less stress and frustration to simply leave American women alone and meet women in other countries, as sad as that sounds. I don't really feel comfortable with the war between men and women in this country and I don't want to be a victim or casualty of that war any more than women do.

I have never thought of that actually. To tell you the truth, I have known women in my life who gave me the opposite advice, telling me to go up and talk to women, get their phone numbers and ask them out all at once. One particular woman in fact used to harass me and pressure me to talk to women. She really made me feel self-conscious about the fact that I don't talk to them that much (at time time when I lived near her). If we were out for drinks and I glanced toward a woman or one glanced at me, she would give me so much pressure to go talk to them. I've never been good under pressure, so I never did go talk to them when she pressured me to, and she never let me live it down either. I wonder if I got it in my head that I need to be less subtle from her. I don't talk to her anymore in fact because her harassment and nagging me about my being single got to be too much to deal with. I know that if I had ever waved at a girl in front of this friend she would have made fun of me for weeks because of it. She is not the only woman (thinking back on it now) who has given me that advice either. Others have insisted that walking right up to them and starting a conversation is the best way to do it. "Man up!! !", they say.

I have not been able to get this comment out of my head all day. Abuse is abuse and what goes around comes around. If it is justified to treat men that way without any concern or compassion about his feeling or the psychological trauma you might cause him (even though you don't know the guy at all), then I really can't feel sorry for women who get abused by men who don't care about the how easy it is for the woman to recover either. Fair is fair. If women don't have to have any compassion toward men, then men don't have to either. And yes, the abuse that women inflict on men is just like being raped. Is is absolutely not cool to do the thing you and other women do to men. I was not going to say that but have been so outraged and horrified by this comment and the absolute lack of compassion for another person's feelings, who is not a rapist just a nice guy wanting to meet a woman. It is hard to feel sorry for those women, no matter what happens to them, when they openly admit that they don't feel sorry for men who they abuse no matter what happen to him.

i do not think that having someone yell something abusive at you when you try to talk to them is equivalent to rape. i have been raped, and i have been publicly embarrassed, and they are not the same thing.

it isn't cool for anyyone to talk to anyone else like that, but if they are fearful for their safety or upset, then it makes sense they would do it anyways. that may not always be the case, but it might be some of the time. and some of the time the woman might just be nasty or unfriendly. but being nasty and unfriendly is not the same as sexually assaulting someone.

if you tend to think of yourself as a victim in a situation like this, where you are the instigator to begin with, it is dangerous territory. you were not just wlaking in a park and minding your own business and having women hurl abuse at you. you were getting into their space and potentially making them uncomfortable.

what exactly did these women say to you?

It is!! ! Women are just as abusive as men are and the wounds they inflict last a lifetime, same as rape. I can testify to that. I guess the dating situation in the US really is war. And I know what you mean about protecting yourself because I do it too. The reason I posted this was because I have not talked to any women for a long time because of the fear women have instilled in me, just because I was nice to them (but I won't make that mistake again). I had been hoping to find some advice and compassion. How foolish of me to expect compassion from a culture of compassionless women. Now I am disgusted with the whole thing and feel more than ever like never talking to any of these American ******s ever again. And I do feel justified to call some of them names. If they can assume I'm a rapist, I can assume whatever I want about them too. Fair is fair, right?

The instigator?!?!? Now I've heard everything. Getting blamed for women's bad behavior again. For a man to want to meet a woman is not a crime, nor is walking up to her and saying Hi. And now you are making it out to be like I was rude and invaded their personal space. In most cultures that would be considered a really nice and beautiful thing. But in the US it is considered instigating? What a sick culture!!

have you ever been raped? if you have not, please do not compare those two experiences. i do not know what it feels like to have my leg broken (for example), so i would not compare the experience to getting punched in the face (for example).

i have been publicly humiliated, and i have also agreed with you that it is a bad thing. but it's like in your frenzy of anger you are not seeing that people do understand. it is just that you are comparing two disssimilar things of vastly different magnitude.

nobody is saying it would feel good to have somebody hurl insults at you, but they are saying that other people have the right to maintaining a feeling of safety and security. you can choose to approach people in a place or in a manner that makes them uncomfortable (we gave you advice as to better ways to talk to women to avoid this)... and they can choose to make a fuss when you do. if you do not want to have it happen, then changing your approach will help.

you are asking for compassion, but you are demonstrating absolutely no compassion for the women you approached on public transit or in a park. nobody is saying that women never abuse men, but it's like you are not willing to accept the reasons why women are cautious.

you approached them. that makes you the instigator of the situation. i am not saying whether they had appropriate reactions or not, because i was not there and i do not know if they were scared or mad or just mean or rude. and i do not know what you said to them, or what they said to you.

but you caused the situation to happen in the first place by approaching them unsolicited. if i walk up to a kid in a playground (a child may fear an adult, even though i am friendly and nice), i can expect that the child will tell me to get the heck out of his face and mind my own business because he is fearful, or upset, or angry that i came over and talked to him. this is reasonable, as i have the potential to hurt or kidnap that child. men are largely the people who instigate violence against women (they are the instigators against other men also), so logically and reasonably women will be cautious and wary when approached by a stranger.

nobody in this thread said that women are never abusive, or that women never do anything wrong to men, by the way.

It is EXACTLY the same thing. Sexual abuse coming from women intended for the purpose of destroying men. I know exactly what it is. It is just like I said earlier. It is hostile women exercising some sick kind of power over men. Why? I don't know.



I explained earlier that they are the same thing. The scars that men endure from women last a lifetime and never heal. Look, I don't feel your pain any more than you feel mine. I could just as easily deny that you've experienced any pain at all, just like you are doing with me.



I will choose to approach women outside the US from now on, where I'm not considered a rapist for no reason at all. In some countries people are innocent until proven guilty.



From now on I'll treat people the way they treat me. You want compassion? Show some. And I did hear your reasons for abusing men. An eye for an eye right? I get it. I'm not impressed, but I get it.